Hoops

Why do people abuse officals?

you gave one example of one referee not turning up to national's training. I'm talking about the 100 clubs that play junior state championships asking a Level 1 A grade referee down to referee a scrimmage! That's what i was implying.

But again if i read your post correctly now a couple of refs dont turn up to pre-arranged scrimmages. I'm wondering if they were underage titles were they held during the day? Were the referees who were appointed to these championships of "underage" or were they 24 or 25 years old who hold down full time jobs? Because what usually happens in other states is ITC programs and state programs of the like dont necessarily fit into schedulaes of people who have fulltime jobs. A recent example in Victoria for instance is the Opals were looking for referees for there latest practice match. The practice match was being held at 3:30pm at Sandringham on Tuesday........sort of rules out more than half the elite senior panel in Victoria who would be of ability to referee the game!! So just from a purely objective view point you have to look at all the parameters to actually identify if the referees were in fact able to attend. I AGREE......PLEASE NOTE I AGREE if the practices were pre-arranged and the referees agreed, repeat AGREED to attend and didnt show up then they should be sanctioned no question. But i do not know of an ELITE referee (in my 25 years involved in ELITE basketball) who has the professionalism to get to a National Championship would then have the non-professionalism to just not show up at a scrimmage they agreed to.

I have however been on the recieving end of turning up to games where the game venue and or game time have been changed but of course no one bothered to notify the referees but that is another can of worms.

"As mentioned above, players not showing up without notice would be cut. Happens very rarely - because players (esp. at a state level) usually have a level of accountability they are used to, and know and are willing to make the commitments necessary. If they are not willing to commit to the preparation, they usually don't try out.
"

I know of plenty of players at all level who get preferential star treatment. If the stud doesnt turn up he doesnt get cut. Please live in the real world! And as stated above most referees who get to referee under 20 nationals or under 18 nationals generally have a degree of professionalism as well as they also wish to get to the next level.


One of the main issues i was trying to broach was you were putting all referees into the one basket as being unaccountable due to the one instance you outlined. It would be like me saying all NBL players take ecstacy tablets because 1 Perth player did!

Generalised statements doing nothing for your arguement. Each situation must be assessed on it's merits, that's the point i want to get across. Just because 1 SA ref wasnt accountable or even 2. Doesnt mean the rest of the SA referees panel arent accountable!

Anon #909 just like your distaste for people you feel constantly stick up for refs so is our disdain for you constantly bashing them.

The case you put forward about 1 ref not turning up due to not being paid is one example. One referee not the entire SA panel. Why isnt the referee sacked dumped accountable etc who knows you will have to ask the people in charge that one but im sure it is no different for players. My example would be and it is purely hypothetical and i am not form SOuth Australia so i dont know any of your players so lets just say if 5 years ago a yong Joe Ingles didnt turn up for state training one night without any notification BASA would sack their stud player who they hope is going to bring them a national championship??? Correct no they wouldnt. Hence i guess why the referee didnt get dumped.

My reference to scrimmages was across the board. Not just at one elite level. You seem more than happy to slag off referees but you have not been forthcoming with one legitimate way to improve refereeing. All you have done is try and place the blame at the feet of others. Everyone knows there are problems with the development of referees at all levels. How about you try and be part of the solution rather than continually being a part of the problem. All criticism, all destructive and nothing constructive.

There will always be bad eggs who make a bad name for the entire group just like there are players who do the same. Some referees are motivated by money and generally they dont go far. But the majority that ascend to a decent level do so because they want to get better and wont to improve. They want to be the best they can be. How about we look into solutions and resources to help nuture this, find resources to help them develop or help them get better rather than sit behind a computer screen and throw insults at them without putting forward any viable alternative yourself.

The quote I read was "One ref wrote ......." and then Questions why are all 'Refs' different?Singular to plural?Parts of Anons debate cant seem to change his idealogy on Refs no matter what other pertinent informant has been written to .
In this sport,everyone is condensed into a small area and all types of emotions play out.So what, if something happened as long as its not extreme ,the reaction is not standard,it will change at the next moment.Will the game, continually, week in week out have dire consquences when we know its not knife edged important?Will a ratio score for the winning team of two to One increase their problems if a ref makes a mistake or a coach bursts an artery?Very few players have a high scoring percentage,very few Teams from div 2-5 involve refs at practice,very few refs go to the top league games,very few players foul out every game.
While Ump'ing is the focus when you rock up,then 60-70% of the time it will needle you.
Male and female Refs have different lighter and darker moods no different to both the teams players and supporters.Sometimes the Planets align?

Anon 862
So because one referee chucked a hissy and said "if we dont get paid, im not doing it" means we all do??
And im pretty sure they had there reasons for not turning up and did inform someone it just wasnt passed on in most cases.

My two cents:

Charon29 and others have said something along these lines:

Secondly, as far as referee development goes: To succeed as a Div 1 junior player, one must put in two trainings per week in addition to games. I don't know much about referee training, but I'm pretty sure they don't spend 3 hours a week learning their craft at training.


It is a great idea to send referees to 3 hour training sessions, awesome fantastic. Let them talk rules see film discuss plays etc.

Referees are not like players. They cannot go to a court and practice reffing! A player can work on his jump shot, practice dribbling etc etc. The only way a referee can practice is "on the court" in game situations. Unfortuantely its a nature of the beast. Until maybe some clubs get referees to come to their training sessions and ref scrimages there is no other place but in game situations to practice.

Someone above said you ref i abuse. That's fine at a 36ers game. You pay your $20 in a professional sports environment you should be allowed to abuse the hell out fo the referees, its your right its actually a religion in Australia. But at domestic level your only hurting yourself. Referee retention is at an all time low due to abuse. If your an office worker would you allow someone off the street to stand at your desk and yell at you all day, say personal things etc NO you wouldnt. Thats why young refs leave the game because they dont get abused working in the kitchen at McDonalds flipping burgers.

There is another old saying if you kick a dog often enough it will eventaully bite you. People above have complained about refs giving techs etc etc. Most people after a while get sick of abuse and eventually they say stuff it and hit you with a T. I've seen coaches complain about every call. It may have been the worst reffing display ever but not every call is wrong. Just a tip, if you complain about every call your going to get a T or get treated as the boy who cried wolf. And when you do have a legitimate comment or question it will go un-heard do to the fact the ref has swithced off.

We all wish the rules were black and white. But if you look at the rule book advantage/disadvantage applies to both fouls and violations. The difference is the good refs have a feel for the game the bad dont. Anonymous said 6 seconds in the key is fine.......that's ridiculous as someone pointed out due to gaining an advantage by rebounding position. But how many people know that if i'm the offensive player and i recieve the ball within 3 seconds (say 2.8) as long as i'm making a move to the basket in an attempt to score the 3 second rule now doesnt apply? NOt many im sure.

The bottom line for to long the powers that be have not invested enough money and resources into reffing and this is obvious. FIBA has always stated that reffing should be roughly 70% the quality of playing and the both move upwardly with the same devide. It's not the refs have got worse in the last 15 years, its just the players and coaches have got 200% better due to millions of $$$ invested whereas reffing ahs stayed at 1995 standards and most of the educational matterial is still pen and paper. Apart form elite officials not many referees see themselves on DVD to have any chance to get visual feedback of their performance positioning and calling.

Until more resources are poured into refereeing, especially at the lower levels the standard will never improve. It's as simple as that.

BUt to say send a referee to 3 hours traiing a week is the answer is ridiculous. The only way a ref can practice their craft is on the court in game situations. It's as simple as that

Children, children, thats enough bickering.
Most people have shared their points of view and as a whole most of us agree (except 1 or 2 rednecks)
Refs should not have to put up with abuse. While coaches and players should receive fair, consistant reffing to the best of the referee's ability.

BSA handed out a flyer this week because it appears this abuse has got out of hand.

What I think should occur (FWIW):
1) Referee's match payments increased to entice more refs and enthuse the current batch.

2) Parents warned once, coach notified, second time parents name taken and sent in to BSA to monitor, ejected from the game only if necessary.

3) Referee assessed. In the SANFL junior ranks coaches are asked to critique the umpires performance. This is collated and shared with the ump at an appropriate time. It is not used to belittle the ump but to make improvements to decisions that require attention which occur over several games.

4) Court supervisors to play a greater role and be seen courtside. They get the extra dollars and should not be sitting around, refusing to attend to coaches on-court concerns.

Can I start a "why are refs illiterate?" thread?

"and umpires are so thin in numbers you dont want to turn to them and say your shit, you get worse games. I can tell you i learn more from a div 1 game then i do from a div 5."

No, you don't want to tell anyone they are shit but what is wrong with the notion of only promoting an umpire to a higher grade when he proves his worth?

And as you get to a higher grade, coaches get scrutinised publicly, and risk losing their jobs if they don't perform. No coach turns around and says "well, we excecuted 70% of our plays correctly" and expects to maintain his job.

Further to that, a coach can come out and say that he has dropped Player X for not performing, and that player can spend some time in the reserves fixing his issues. Very, very rarely does an umpire's supervisor inform anyone that he has dropped one of his guys for bad performances. Thats if they even do get dropped for having a shocker.

hence the truism - practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect

What chance has any referee got when someone like William Wallace interprets "all we ask for is consistency" as "lets make sure we call every single play a charge". Consistency isn't evening the score with make up calls, it's making sure you apply the same rules and calls throughout the game for both teams.

Most refs are apart from the game.

Ok, from a die hard sixers fan.....I abuse officials because it is part of the game. You ref, I abuse. Its fairs fair. Your ref badly, I open my mouth. You ref good and maybe I leave you alone until next your at the BMC.

In State League, they are very amateur refs. Therefore, you cop it for the reffing you provide.

In Open and Under age leagues, this is when kids pick up their skills. I saw one ref recently call fouls on one kid who had good skill. When the kid got angry and asked for reasoning, the ref cited unsportsmanlike behaviour and threw the kid out of the game. Enough said, but thats because refs in this state, cant ref.

Luke Smith cant ref nor can another to whom i cant think of his name.

Anon 455- there was at least 5 Stadiums I am aware of that had solos last night- 3 games at the venue I was at. There are refs who have been around a fair while asking for weeks off because of this continued abuse. So what does this tell you all- not enough refs, many being used before they should be on a Friday and the circle continues. There needs to be a real think tank with all contributing ie refs, coaches, parents, players so that starting next season there is NO excuse for anyone to walk into a stadium and not know what is expected of them. What was started last night is a beginning.

Did anyone see the Bombers-Blues game last night, in particular the moment where Carlton scored a goal from a turnover after one of the umpires impeded an Essendon player so that he couldn't get a proper run at the ball? The conversation that took place between the umpires and Jobe Watson is the exact reason why there is a divide between players and officials, and this is why umpires get abused. While the incident was a complete accident, Watson had every right to feel annoyed. Rather than a brief apology from the umpire, he was spoken to in a completely condescending manner.

If a player (a captain, no less) isn't allowed to air his legitimate grievances without being told to get over it by an official then we are no closer to solving the problem of umpire abuse. Respect is a two way street and the more we put umpires on this ridiculous pedestal where they can't be constructively criticized, or where they live in this bubble where they don't have to put their hand up an admit an error, the more we are going to increase the current divide.

to answer your original question: because they are wrong

And we wonder why some people think referees fail to understand the game? Or have poor communication skills? Or referee the player or the coach and not the game? See 383/386.

Ankles, I think you have an overly idealistic view of how soccer or netball is umpired. Plenty of grey areas and interpretations to be made in both sports.

If you watched even a small selection of games in the World Cup, you would know that there are hundreds of grey areas called. When is a foul play on, or merely a foul, or a yellow card, or a red? Subjective much?

Sounds like a good plan. You sound like a good referee - good luck with it.

THOUGH - (you knew there had to be a but!). I dont take stock of the 'maintain the spectacle argument'. Not too many people I know go to a game of junior basketball for the entertainment value. They generally have a more immediate stake (their kids). For those people (yes, parents are people too!) they want to see their kids given an opportunity to play fairly, and to develop.

I suspect this notion of letting the game flow comes from our referee educators who are most likely refereeing at a higher level where people are paying to watch the spectacle (still not sure that is a good reason to let the rules slide but nevertheless).

But letting the game flow and ignoring minor infractions doesn't make the game fairer (because invariably a referee cant be completely consistent in what he/she lets slide - leading to coachal and parental angst) and doesn't allow players to develop as they are being disadvantaged by players 'breaking the rules'.

My reasoning is it is easier to call everything beacsue you know the rules and you dont have to interpret or make decisions as often AND players will adjust as I alluded to in my example above - and the games wont be so stop-start.

Do they allow off-side to slide so as not to interrupt the game in soccer, what about stepping in netball?

Just a different perspective.

All the rules are black and white!! Its the referees and the referees coaches that try and interpret them and when they ask young and inexperienced referees to interpret rules, you are asking for trouble!

I watched a game last week where I got to a count of six with a post player in the key calling for the ball and still 3 seconds wasn't called. What's the interpretation there? Not involved in the play? Doesn't have to be guarded because everybody should know she's broken the rules already? She gets 3 seconds AFTER the catch.

A friend of mine once said that refereeing went down hill when they changed the uniforms to grey from balck and white because thats what they did to the rules as well (took them from black and white to grey).

I remember doing a coaching session with a group of U18 elite boys and calling every travel they took in practice (most of which they will get away with in a game for some reason - until a referee decides to call it for that particular game!). They hated me for the first five minutes and after that had adjusted to having much better, and legal, footwork. Took all of five minutes to make the adjustment, just as it would if referees returned to calling black and white rules (particularly at a junior level).

I don't not think refs should be abused. As a society we should have more respect for people in general and abusing refs shows a lack of respect.

Refs make mistakes, but we all do. There's no need to get too fired up.

I have found most refs going around to be pretty good. You get to know what they call and what they "no call", so just enjoy the game. There's only one kid at Mars who is so biased he is an embarrassment to Norwood, but just cringe and let him have his 15 mins of fame.

I'm glad #239 said it first. I have long detested the notion that the game wouldn't exist without referees. Most games are in fact better without refs in many ways - the laws of the jungle mean if you are willing to take somebody's head off then you better be prepared to lose your own! ALL games were invented before they decided they needed referees.

We (players/cooaches/parents) get frustrated when we see the resources that are put into refereeing not produce a consistent or fair effect. All of the points made above are valid - BUT - when i see two referees and a referees supervisor costing in excess of $250 for a game of D-League basketball and the job still being done poorly, I feel like I have the right (as a consumer) to expect more.

If, in my business, I dealt with a customer the way many referees are taught to deal with players and coaches - I'd be out of business before it got dark. The 'talk to the hand', the 'no more coach' on the first enquiry, the 'this conversation is over' following a legitimate enquiry - none of it breeds trust that there is an effort to improve the performance or understand the game.

I approached a referees evaluator the other to ask to whom should I make a complaint about the refereeing (I was worried about player safety - the game was getting out of hand). I was told that there was a form on the website but that the first person they would ask would be him and he would tell them my complaint was rubbish! So just an attitude that the performance of the refs can simply not be questioned - other than by the evaluators who will tear strips off them behind closed doors.

There are many, many good refs out there but there are also many who pursue personal agendas or are there just to collec the cash.

To the above posters who obviously are still refereeing (I gave that up a long time ago) I would make three simple points:
- I think your first and foremost job is to make the game safe for everybody.
- Secondly - it's a referee's job to make the game FAIR, not to make the game EVEN. Some players are better than others - faster, bigger, stronger, taller, more skilled - they will be harder to stop, dont let teams use illegal means to do that - it holds back the development of both players. Some teams foul more than others - a 5-1 foul count often means a team has purdued a 'wear-em-out' strategy. Foul hard and early, then point to the foul count and get open slather as the referees try and even things up.
- thirdly - try and understand why certain things happen - eg, fouling a lot early, holding off the ball, bumping all the way down the court. Singly, they may seem incidental and minor but as a part of a strategy, they combine to wear opposition teams down by consistently breaking rules. You know in the backcourt you've got a foul to give, the ref will say hands out th efirst time and if you keep your hands out after that no problem. Except that 20 possessions later the point guard has been fouled 20 times without penalty! Good chance there's going to be a couple of clean turnovers late in the game.

Very constructive post "Anonymous". The reality is that most of the biggest abusers of officials are not those actually playing the game or in some cases have never played the game, let alone actually read a rule book. They are the worst type of spectator - the parent.

No matter what happens on the court, it is always someone elses fault. It is the referee who makes the wrong calls, it is the opposition who always fouls little Johnnie when they miss a shot, it is the team mates fault for missing the pass that goes out of court or straight to the opposition, and the case described above where the parent blames the umpire for their precious little one's own clumbsiness.

Actually this parent is also a spectator at the local junior football/soccer/netball etc club and apparently the referees/umpires there also display the same bias towards little Johhnie as well.

I had an experince last year at a Karate Tournament where a parent came up to me after a sparring bout and said that she and a few other parents thought that I hadnt called points for her daughter. I politely asked whether or not any of them actually trained in Karate - NO. had any of them refereed at a Tournament - NO. Had any of them actually read the rules - NO. Do you actually understand what the scoring criteria for a point is - NO.

I took the time to explain what the criteria was and especially the part about the first technique in being awarded the point. I also explained that depending on where you stand can make a difference in how you see what is happening. The other consideration is that the referee is looking at ALL involved, not just one person.

She left a lot happier, as did the daughter when they actually understood how and why the calls went the way they did. How many basketball parents take the time to do the same.