Hoops

Is This Allowed???

Oh maybe it's Spam
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any player / parents that want to play div 1 and are not getting what they want at their current club would be intelligent enough to look elsewhere.

West are desperate - really desperate - woodville have passed them in junior girls in the western suburbs, and woodville had a poor roster, until they ended up getting the best recruiting bloke and now are 100% better off - and no relief is on the horizon for the bearcats.


There is an understanding between clubs that - NO approaches would be made to known players from other clubs.

The poster should read - "West are desperate for Div 1 junior girls" - more politically correct.

what idf a div 3 player comes and are totally inept at div 1 - what do you do? - it is false promises.

I know kids that would rather play in a good div 2 team than a bad div 1 team.

Somewhere in the BASA regs is a section which fines a club $750 if they poach a player and a State coach is involved. Do you know where the fine, if paid by the club concerned, ends up. The regs do not state where it should go so BASA keep it. The other club misses out. And what is more the other club can not find out whether the fines were paid at all. The regs need improving.

Well if that's the case for the Newley example, that's the sort of thing that happened to my boy - "you'd be more than welcome here" or something similar...is that illegal in your mind, guys?

I should clarify, after the game when we were all shaking hands.

Well if that defines 'poaching', then a certain coach who I won't name approached one of the players on my team that I coached (Div 1 at the time) illegally. So it happens, people.

Doesnt matter what sort of user name they are using, personal attacks on people, will not be tolerated, as a) it makes people uncomfortable, and b) there could be litigous issues involved as well.

As I said, we dont want to censor (hence why the open registration and auto-posting), but if people cant follow the 1 simple rule we have - RESPECT FOR OTHERS - we are left with no choice.

Bob, Terrific email! I will put it up there with my Mike Myers movie collection and my Rodney Rude tapes as the things I turn to make me laugh. I would like to make the following retorts: - Sadly youre lacking any credibility because you dont have the integrity to put your own reputation on the line. 'Bob' is a fantastic name to hide your true identity...I liked how you used both a Norwood and a West reference in your email to hide which club you are from too. - Your comment 'So it may be ok for West to get the kids but they still have to develop them? What a croc' read to me that you are saying that you don't need to develop players to keep them at your club?? Is that your belief? I never said that West were a club that couldnt develop kids just that time will tell if in that instance they get both the recruiting and the development mix right. This is something that every club is judged by, including Sturt. Nothing wrong in saying that I wouldn't have thought. - I also enjoyed how you hinted at Scott, Mesecke and I's senior coaching record. Was this to maybe hint to your many adoring fans that you had one?? Why dont you put yours up so we can judge for ourselves?? Of course we are talking about the issue of transfers of JUNIOR players, as opposed to how senior programs should be coached to win championships, so bringing up that point is completely off the point and a thinly veiled attempt to try and discredit three coaches that are firmly and actively against poaching. But look, if you ever do eventually put up your excellent senior coaching wins and losses and the forum topic is regarding Senior coaching 'dynastys', please feel free to post at will. - What were the reasons for those Norwood players coming to Sturt? Do you actually know or are you just bagging our proud club because you are aware of one case where players from another club transferred within the rules to our club. Were they talked to by anyone from our club? When did these conversations take place and by whom? Have you any hard evidence of poaching? Or is your style to just throw comments out there that sound very controversial but lack any substance. Please enlighten us on the players that Scott, Paul and I have talked to about coming to Sturt from SASI. We are all ears! - I too agreed that there was nothing wrong with what Travis was doing. I said that it was in poor taste...and judging by the reaction this thread has had I am not the only one. Are you likely to bag any other people on this forum for having the same opinion on this subject? Seems to me that you have maybe a specific beef against Sturt for a reason that doesn't relate to this subject. If you would like some 'closure', by all means get in touch with one of us three and we will be happy to discuss. - I think our club's record of producing players to senior level is fine thanks. It actually includes three players at this year's Olympics: Brett Maher, Laura Summerton and Angela Marino. But hey, lets not let the facts stand in the way of a good shit bagging! - As for my credibility in coaching juniors, I am very confident that the hours and effort I have put into the development of basketball both in my previous employment at BASA and my current coaching roles at Sturt more then justify my role as a coach. Of course everyone is allowed an opinion, and I guess after the misinformed, fictional, propaganda you have come out with on this site, we can all judge what that opinion is worth. Kind Regards

OOOO, I didn't know we could use html? (That was a test).

Yogee and other mods - personal attacks when people post with their own name and/or it is well known who their identity is? Or do aliases not count?

This is a mod warning

This discussion has been good, with many different thoughts, but personal attacks (such as "Bob") will NOT be tolerated on the board, and if they continue, will be removed.

We pride ourselves on having a non-censored board, unlike some other forums about basketball in this state, but we WILL draw the line at personal attacks.

SORRY! My mistake! Ooopsy daisy, guess I shoulda read ALL the posts hmmm okay. In my example I said "Bearcats Under 14 girls div 2/3 players blah blah, call Travis at Sturt on ...." . I only used those teams as an example as I'm not aware of the people in charge at the various clubs these days.

Perhaps I should have used this example instead ... "Wangaratta Rays Under 14 girls div 2/3 players blah blah, call Joe Bloggs at Wagga Wagga Dogs on ...." . Maybe now that won't step on anyone's toes (gawd I hope I don't get flamed by Wangaz or Waggaz players now lol).

LeApFrOg ;-D

My long-winded two cents.

As a former junior 'district' player, I can think of a few reasons why a player would or would not be enticed to changing clubs.

Reasons FOR changing:
- Possible conflict with the coach of current Div 1 team or team mates.
- Player is good enough to play Div 1 but there aren't enough roster spots.
- Tired of being a bench warmer on current team (perhaps even Div 1).
- An opportunity to really PLAY and show people what you've got.
- Proximity to new club's stadium.

Reasons AGAINST changing:
- In the junior age groups, basketball is often about friendships with team/club mates.
- Club loyalty.
- Sibling or parental history with the club.
- Proximity to current club's stadium.

I can see why the sign would cause a conflict of interests, but I think that since it doesn't specifically target a named club or say which club they'd be joining, then it's hard to say whether it crosses a line. Sure, if it said for example "Bearcats Under 14 girls div 2/3 players blah blah, call Travis at Sturt on ...." , I think that'd be worse.

But it's a public stadium where lots of players go to from different clubs, and seems to be the ideal arena to reach a broad range of clubs and people. It's not demanding that people call him, only those that are interested. If a player or parent doesn't want to change, then they can ignore it. However, there could be that one player who is just waiting for their chance to shine, and why shouldn't they be allowed to?

I aint much into the polotics and by-laws etc, I just think that a person should be able to choose, and that everyone should be kept informed of the other options open to them. Some players may not even consider changing because they think that every other club is like their own. Competitive, dog eat dog, impress at trials or sit on the bench in Div 3. The reality may be that there's a club that is screaming for youth or experience in that age group that just doesn't have the popularity of the big name clubs. That doesn't make them any less of an option. The right mix of players that work well with each other, can make a winning team, regardless of the colour of the uniform or the profile of the club.

As a junior I considered myself to be a fairly good player. I can recall a former coach who had his favourite little player and she got 40 minutes a game every game and was an absolute ball hog. Now that would be the perfect reason to change clubs rather than sit on the bench and put up with that garbage. Meanwhile my self esteem went down, and no matter how well I did at practice, the same thing would happen every week.

Now I'm not making excuses, but at a junior level, probably the most vital at shaping the future of the game, I wonder how many potentially great players are lost due to experiences such as these. Remembering that although people take basketball seriously it is still a game. If for whatever reason it isn't fun anymore, then switching to another team could be just the ticket to bring out the best of a player held back in another situation and reignite their passion for the game.

LeApFrOg ;-D

On a different note, is it poaching if you deliberately target a player despite the fact that the player is a SASI player (and thus incurs the transfer fee), which the club duly is willing to pay? Or is it just good business?

Is that like giving a club a 'right' to a player, incognito, they have produced a player worthy of a scholarship and thus have a 'right' to compensation if they lose him?

Just food for thought!

Well I for one would like to know what facts Travis has to offer to support his wild accusation. Seems to me that he is deflecting some of the attention away from this thread, by trying to tarnish the repuation of a club that has no interest in poaching kids from other clubs.

Lets face the facts, we are in a position where we dont need to recruit kids from other clubs. This is a direct result of the excellent work our U10 coaches do in developing the kids that come to our club from a young age, and is carried on by our professional and experienced coaches throughout every age group.

In my time at Sturt, we have knocked back many more kids then we have taken in...probably on a 10:1 ratio.

As for my opinion on the sign up at Port Adelaide. I think it is in a little poor taste, but not a breach of the rules. If that's how West want to recuit kids to their girls program, all the power to them. Just remember that a Div 1 spot may BRING kids to your club, but you've got to develop their skills and make them better players to KEEP them there. Time will tell if they have both bases covered.....

Poaching would be if a club approaches a player directly to entice them to play for that club.

If a player approaches a club, after a club places a general advertisement, as long as that advertisement is within it's own "local" area, then, as far as a general, independent and person of reasonable intelligence is concerned (which is what would be judged by in a court of law), it is NOT poaching.

Look, I wasn't trying to make an issue, he just wanted an example! I wasn't trying to discredit anybody or credit myself!

It just seemed at the time to alot of people in our division very dodgy that a player had gone to the club of the State Coach, and was playing for another SASI coach.

Thanks for clearing it up however, Liam, I as many people were/are also unaware that John approached Sturt to play, I do appreciate that he was getting a raw deal at North! I don't see how they couldn't see him in their future plans, bit ridiculous if you ask me, don't often get players that size coming through in bottom age.

Big Aristotle why is everything a competition to you? Who cares? You could have just cleared it up like Liam and Scott did without the personal jibe.

Sonny,

Clearly you don't know the first thing about the situation and are very misinformed. And what makes it worse is, that your hiding behind a 'nick name' because you dont have the integrity to put yourself or your club's reputation up for scruteny on this matter.

Let's get some facts straight:

- Sturt did not make any approach to John at all. The Smith's contacted us first and asked if he could come over to play.
- They cited their relocation (as mentioned in post 2216) and the fact that he was a member of the State team and not getting significant minutes of playing time in his club team as the reasons for shifting clubs.
- North made it clear that they did not see John in their future plans for that age group, so THEY cleared him to play at Sturt.

I don't know the intracacies of how this was done but I think it occured after a conversation between the two club Presidents. I guess they just wanted the best for a young man, and seeing he didn't have the opportunity at North, they thought it was in his best interests to shift clubs.

There is certainly no bad blood between the two clubs over this matter. In fact I am sure if we had a player at Sturt who had relocated to the Northern Suburbs and was not getting an oportunity, we would have done the same thing.

Sonny if you have any further factual evidenece on this situation, by all means bring it forward. Until that time occurs, around the time that pigs start flying I presume, remain on the sidelines hidden behind your little nick name.

Big Aristotle wanted an example?

John Smith moving to Sturt in 2002 (Mesecke state coach).

Re zoning. I have been involved with an organisation that dealt with minors, and had to join their local unit of a nationwide organisation.

Each unit was restricted to a maximum number. Once this number was reached, any new applicants wefre drip fed to their next local unit (a neighbouring unit).

I personally do NOT agree that zoning is an option. As a parent, if my child wanted to play basketball, and Club Freedom offered the best junior program, in my opinion, I would do my best to get my child into that program. If that clubs program then dropped off, or my child was being hampered, by being kept in Div 2, because Div 1 was full of excellent talent, and Club Democracy was offering my child the oppurtunity to play Div 1, why wouldnt my child want to transfer, if all other situations (friends, coach relationship etc) was the same?

Zoning would prevent this, as zoning also discriminates against clubs in different areas. Central, North Southern and Sturt would fair well, as they are local to suburbs with families, who have kids at playing age.

Woodville, West, Forestville, Norwood have more "yuppie" or elderly suburbs, or suburbs with a higher migrant population, where basketball is not a sport of that culture. Why should these clubs be denied the oppurtunity to gain a junior player, just because of where that juniors parents live, whether by choice, or circumstance?

I think this is a great discussion, and I am sure one had by better minds than ours, keep up the thoughts!!

Is this for Nationals, or local club recruiting??

If it is local club recruiting, I dont see an issue with it. It's just like what John Rillie did when he left Adelaide. Could not get a start at Adelaide, as he was behind Maher & Mee, yet went on to star for West Sydney.

There are probably players stuck in Div 2/3 at other clubs, because their Div 1 team is full of outstanding talent, or other reasons, and so Bearcats (I assume, being at Port Adelaide) are offering these girls a Div 1 chance.

Unfortunately, as part of sports today, there is no real club loyalty, players such as Brett Maher, Andrew Gaze, Mark Ricciutio are very rare indeed.