Hoops

The balance of offence and defence in the NBL

Isaac, I agree with you. And I agree with Gaylord's example.

I love to see good dunks, and I love to see dunks stopped because of great LEGAL 'D'. (I wish every year that Damian Martin would join the Tigers cos I love his 'D'.)

What I hate is attackers being too scared to go inside the key or to leave the ground because some thug might ruin their career and get away with it. I also hate attackers who can shove defenders out of their way and get away with it.

And that gets back to calling the rules tightly and penalising based on the intent, not on whether the other player survived intact or whether there was any blood spilled.

It's not football FFS !

MYSTRO, I'm also blown away..... by your mother at least once a week!!



you sure that's my mother and not my brother in her dress?

"What coach is ever going to take the responsibility to keep their players legal and what fans would ever support that?"

To add to Hoopie's point, the fans are the ones who would benefit from a coach keeping their players legal. In the NBL, how often do fans get excited to see a player on a break about to throw down a dunk, only to be disappointed by the THUG who commits the "professional" foul?

College ball is a better example of how the game should be played. It's not perfect, but coaches place a lot of emphasis on how to play defence. Not how to be a thug to hide the fact they can't play defence.

Gotta disagree with ya on two points, Isaac

"What coach is ever going to take the responsibility to keep their players legal and what fans would ever support that?"
When you're coaching to win and you've had three players fouled out by half-time because the refs called strictly by the rules, then you'd be a really dumb coach not to get the message and change your players' behaviour.

"Again, teams would be called soft, etc."
There's always going to be thuggery. What we need is some sense of consequence - 'you do the crime, you do the time' kind of thing. It's sad that some players will keep doing the wrong thing until they think they're going to get caught out, but that's the way the refs around the world have let the game turn out.

To think that one of Naismith's original principles was to avoid physical contact, because he didn't want it to be just another version of football. NBL doesn't look much different from AFL these days. I certainly wouldn't take kids to it to show them how the best game in the world should be played.

Yeah Isaac, also players and coaches reacting the same way as the fans.

What this says to me is that refs are taking the comments of fans, players and coaches way too personally. To the point where their calls are potentially influenced by some drunken yahoo in the crowd yelling insults.

My experience in Australian basketball as a player and a fan has taught me it is very rare for a ref to understand the emotion involved in a game of basketball. They should really stop trying to "control" the game, which seems to be a prevailing trend. Instead, they should call the flippin game in accordance with the flippin rules..

Awesome topic and some really interesting points raised.

The issue of thuggery as a tactic is rife across all levels of senior basketball in Australia. And the refs are the ONLY ones who can stop coaches using it. As POP said, they need to have the courage to see something and call it straight away. There should be no reason for interpretation.

You can't blame players for following their coaches insructions. However, when the instructions involve grapling, elbowing, kneeing, or acts that are basically "cheap shots", coaches should take some responsibility. I know you can't coach to lose or be soft. You can coach to win within the spirit of the game though.

MYSTRO, I'm also blown away..... by your mother at least once a week!!

how can 2 people disagree on the internet and not call each other names and make references to sexual activity with each others Mother????


I'm blown away.....

great topic and some good posts, cheers for the read.








p.s 3peat

Also, Paul - The projections you mention for Perth are based on the pythagorean win expectation model. I mention this on the post itself.

What it does is look at the team's offensive and defensive production and give an estimated win figure, out of a possible 28.

At the start of the season, the Wildcats were a lot less cohesive of a team that you see today, hence the lower projections. You'll notice the projections change week to week, based on how well each team has been doing. That is part of the fun of having these posted each week. Fan's like to see if the outlook of their team is getting better.

They are however only projections, as the title itself suggests. If you read the weather report and don't take an umbrella to work, only to get your nice new pink shirt all wet and people can see your nipples through it on your way home, is that the weatherman's fault? No, it's yours, for putting to much stock in something called a 'forecast' or 'projection'.

Hi.

Yes, I am using PPG for one team and fouls per game for 2 teams.

This is because when a foul is called it effects both teams. When the whistle is blown both teams have to stop and the game loses some of it's momentum.

So in other words, a team may score 80 points in the game, but they've had to stop 40 times along the way because of the referee blowing their whistle, regardless of which team caused the foul.

I did think about doing combined PPG, but thought this didn't make any sense in terms of the way people think about games, or in terms of the stop of momentum, which is the actual point I was trying to make.

Also, these numbers are only for the regular seasons, I didn't include post-season's in the figures.

Agree with the call about the NBL been too well coached.


Part of the problem is the large break between games. Teams generally have a while to scout teams before their next games.

I also think, however, that players in the league lack the versatility to find other ways to score.

A lot of players are predictable, and will score in very few ways. e.g. Boucher (when he does shoot), Crosswell (everyone knows he can't shoot), Cedar, Tovey etc.

In the NBA, you see high scoring games..not because the scouting is bad, but simply because the players are that multi-skilled they can find other ways to get it done.

Totally agree that the answer is to call the fouls that are there. Challenge is for the refs to have the courage, and the concentration, to keep on seeing, reacting and blowing.

Shutting up the coaches - or at least not walking over to them to start up a conversation - would help with the concentration issue in my opinion.

However, another factor is whether or not the players are coached to play defence, or just to grab. One of the issues, it seems to me, is that defenders want to overplay & pressure the player with the ball before he has dribbled, so they repeatedly expose themselves to being beaten on the dribble, and because they are essentially out of position [and in many instances have poor footwork] the only counter they have is to hold, push or whatever.

Call the first foul, not the third or fourth, as is currently often the case, and it will change; and that will mean better legal defence [greater defensive skills]as well as more scoring.

"Or maybe reducing the foul limit to four per game, but also remove the concept of players fouling out?"

That's a pretty ridiculous solution...

The NBL isn't in a tough solution, either. I agree with anon713 and BJF: the fouls are clearly there, so call them and in the long-term players and coaches will adapt.

@Hoopie - "Why do all the answers seem to depend on the refs?"

Because they dictate how the game is played with their calls.

If the refs allow 4-step layups, players will take 4-step layups. They're abusing the rules because the refs allow them to do so.

Why do all the answers seem to depend on the refs?

why shouldn't the players and coaches take more responsibility for playing by the rules?

We're penalising good offense by allowing all this sloppy defense! It's usually the defenders who break the rules cos they're not good enough. If they can't defend a good player then force them to back off instead of letting them hold or grab or whatever.

Instead of changing the game to pamper the players, put it back onto them to play by the rules.
Soccer suspends players whenever they get 5 yellow cards - why not start suspending basketballers when they get fouled out 3 times or get to 15 fouls?