Hoops

Sydney Kings 2014/2015

lol... finally some Anon hate! I was wondering how long it would take... Although I think I've been more critical of the organisation than most on here... but to each their own...

What I've heard from people close to the situation was that an owner made the decision on which player was cut. I'm by no means the only one saying this, but please feel free to post a proper rebuttal instead of pulling out the usual "you don't know crap" bullshit...

..about 5,500 to be viable ADL

i'd guess clarke's crowd was about 4,500 , and joey's about 5,500

A big difference in some clubs new successes is that their PR people actually chase up the promotions, not wait for the calls/letters.
Know your city and know where the other sports are being promoted and seen. Follow the trail....

Putting in some effort, what a creative solution ;) Along with so much competition for the dollar in Sydney, that can actually work in their favour too in that there are so many options to get the brand out there as well... Just need to think outside the box and put some time into it...

Some player changes and change in coach. Marketing didn't seem to change much

I guess winning helps as well... Crowds were still ok when they were losing, but when things are more positive, it certainly helps the vibe in the stadium to be more conducive to getting fans tempted to go and to keep coming back...

Sydney could mimic team and coach with recruiting and money, but the media issue is probably a fraction tougher.

Yeah, having Boti on board and having constant articles in everyone's face is a HUGE bonus. It doesn't help that all the key journos in Sydney are either NRL or Cricket (*makes yawning motions*) centric. Hell, we can't even have basketball on the the Daily Telegraph sports menu, we're hidden away under "More Sports"!

If I were Sydney, I'd be running pro and sticking with it no matter what (always premium press releases, photo ops and so on) and then run some loss-leading efforts to woo media. Put on food/drinks for any media opps, run tailored behind the scenes opps for particular people and so on. Make the targets feel special/appreciated in a genuine way.

Yeah, this is where I was getting at before, and have suggested many times in the last few seasons, they need to get the influential media types at games, bring their families, put them in boxes if needs be, the kids LOVE games, get the Lion to squirt that silly string at them, get them on that cringe-worthy bongo cam, they'll eat it up and the parents should feed off that excitement. Again, won't happen over night, but need to change the minds of the people spreading negative thoughts ("it's an american game", "it's wussy compared to NRL") throughout the media...


Perth is an interesting situation as I'm not really up on how much competition there is for other sports both at grass roots and professional levels, but surely constantly being on the winning end of games, in the playoffs for 28 straight seasons is a huge part of that. Having a Richie Rich owner willing to put in the cash off the court as well as on (Perth have the biggest support staff as well as best facilities, I would wager) really helps as well. He demands success, but knows it's not a short term thing (even though he doesn't look like he's got much time left!) and having a CEO that understands the business side of things and is passionate about getting it right is something that the Kings really need to try to mimic. There's actually been some pretty successful business people involved over the last few years, but for some reason, they haven't worked out or lost interest or just not done a decent job, very very frustrating...

adelaide management told us that clarke was gone and they'd look for a new coach and re sign gibson and weigh. gibson said that he'd wait to see who was coach. later, joey could get ervin, but weigh was so expensive, we couldn't have ervin here. later, joey was reported and there was more media than ever, which continued, as we were in finals, which sydney wouldda been if they had joey

The community involvement (camps, clinics, visiting schools) is a no-brainer.

Every team should do it just as much as Perth. It’s cost-effective (or free i.e. visiting a school down the road with a basketball and some stories) and it gets the community behind the team, which either means more fans or stronger sponsorship and local business support. There is no excuse for not having the level of community involvement that Perth does.

The “lack of time” argument doesn’t hold up – NBA players manage to get a lot of time in thanks to the “NBA Cares” program. And their programs would be much more time-consuming (shootaround, video, media) and throw in the travelling and crazy schedule.

It's going to get harder when the Entertainment Centre is getting a revamp over the next couple of years.

Exactly... They're not making the most of their time in the city as it is (marketing/promotional stuff around the city/public transport to get the city workers to games, no two-for-one deals around the pubs, the only deal they've got is at the Pumphouse and that is only for AT the Pumphouse, no motivation to get to games) imagine what it will be like when they have to move to whatever the SSC is called these days with no food venues for people to go to first, and what will be a huge pain in the arse for the city people to get to on a weeknight game (feeling some of the pain that Western Sydney fans have had to go through currently, granted) which will make things even more unappealing to fans...

Need to find a way to stay relevant in a competitive media and sporting/social market.

They get SO MANY different sports greats to games.. Keogh who is (still?) the CEO of the Cronulla Sharks, Glen McGrath is a huge fan, lots of other NRL identities, they had Paul Roos connected to players/coaches when he was here but didn't make any use of that, there's no ties to other sporting codes (I voiced an idea years ago when they first came back to get into bed with the Swans to make the most of their huge supporter base (and even training facilities?) and try to get their off season fans to games, but nothing... then not even 3 months later, there's an announcement of the Swifts netball team, Swans and I think Roosters(?) all forming a big relationship... Opportunity wasted... Also, when the MLB was over here, they had the Roosters, Sydney FC and some other team in a big "sporting codes of Sydney" photo op... Kings nowhere to be seen... These things don't cost money, they cost effort and someone who knows what they're doing. Someone with some connections in the sporting world... Mark Geyer (ex-NRL player) from the Grill Team (Triple M) has come to a few games, he's on a very well-known radio program, HUGELY focused on NRL, but opportunity wasted to get some people who are influential to a broad range of sports fans to maybe think about coming to games in their primary sports off season... Bob Turner was great for the team (made some suss/emotionally driven recruiting changes) but he was pushed out, now he's doing his best for the Sydney Baseball team (whatever they're called) and no doubt had his hand in getting MLB out here...

I'm not sure, but I think what people are suggesting here is at least trying to be implemented in Sydney.

Have to agree to disagree on that one... Fans here that are coming to games notice the very small amount of effort that is put in around the city to try and get people to games, it's just not there. It's just a strange contrast that they'd try to seek out and get an ex-NBA player, which is a GREAT thing, and then botch the whole thing by an owner demanding the teams ONLY PG is cut for him, not the surplus (and mostly useless) shooting guard! They spent all this money on the team, but lack the effort to try and get a return on their investment... mind boggling!

Remember this is a long term proposition to get the game back up and running, not short term fixing.

Look at how bad the 36ers were going over the last 3 years, but some changes and new idea's and things look different.

I think most people know that and it's not going to happen over night, but no-one can see anything happening...
As someone outside of ADL, what was different with the team this season other than Joey coming on board? Was there anything different in the approach from management (serious question)

Free agent targets?
Ervin or Wilson as possible imports at point guard?
Any good college players returning to Aus this year?

Replacing AJ will be difficult, that level of big men quality is really hard to find, let alone convince to come play NBL... The key to recruiting good talent is a great coach, but see above comments regarding THAT topic...

I'm well on the record with the wish list of a star quality PG (Damo) and another top level big (Peach, or even Wagstaff if he's looking for more playing time) but bringing Cadee back home would be a good score too... Free up being able to bring in a combo guard and give Jason some more responsibility and work on all that potential... With Ellis on board that sort of takes Hill out of the equation (unfortunately) and it all depends if we can lure some top aussie talent over as to what slots the imports would fill...

Corey Maynard has signed on with Daniel Moldovan who reps a lot of NBL guys, but I would REALLY love to see is Angus Brandt... Local boy, legit big, coming off a pretty good season, I think would really excel here... His little bro was a DP this season just gone, hopefully he doesn't have bad things to say about us as I don't think he got any game time...

I think we should stay away from both GE and Wilson... In theory Ervin would be ok, but he just seems like such a douche... COuple of seasons ago I'd have said totally, but I think we can do just as good without all the baggage... Wilson I think is more a shoot first than facilitator and we REALLY need the latter...

Ive never liked the whole 'But that wont work in Sydney, its too hard to get around' mentality. If you organise an event and give everyone enough notice, people will be able to get there.

When it takes anywhere from 90mins to 2hrs to get from one side of the city to the other, that's easier said than done...

If Sydney is too big, get out to the schools you can. Or run free holiday clinics/events where the interested parties come to you rather than you going out to them.

It's exactly what they DO do, both during the season and currently, during the off season... They've got some great support from ALl Sorts Sports where they have a dedicated basketball "factory" that they run a lot of their clinics out of, especially during the off season...

@Matthew: The Kings are really active in the community, even still during the off season... Madge even has his own charity that he is involved with that brings up to 40 kids that are in hospital long term (and their families) to each home game, so any talk about the link to the community not being there (in this thread or others) is pretty bollocks and you're not really grasping the point of the most recent discussion... I agree that the league doesn't need the Kings to be strong to be strong itself, but we're not talking about the league here, we're talking about what the Kings need to do to be successful...

As for Sydney being too big, it's not just about size (and really, the only city that even comes close is Melbourne, (in population, physical size, and competition from other sports) it's about what else is going on. Sydney is predominantly an NRL city, with more than a handful of teams and a BIG head start forming the culture in the hearts and minds of fans. Unlike AFL which is a faster paced, more athletic game than NRL, there are no similarities between NRL and basketball that a lot of fans of NRL can be convinced will be enjoyable to them...

This is in no way the singular excuse as to why fans aren't turning up, it's just a reason that most other teams don't have to face in the uphill battle to promote their team in a league suffering from a lack of identity and popularity...

Looking back at the history of crowd attendance, the height of attendance saw hardly any post-season success, but they had the right people in the front office, and exciting players on the court... Half a decade of resting on their laurels saw them get lazy and with the departures of some key personnel, crowds started to dwindle. Enter the Glory Years of post season and championship success... Crowds went from a high 7-8,000 average (roughly) at the first championship win to drop by about 1,000-1,500 with each championship... Things went busto for a couple of seasons, WSR tried (and failed) to bring the whole of Sydney together with the disastrous renaming adventure. The team wasn't THAT bad, they beat BG and his Dragons in a blinder, they had a bunch of great young players (Damo, Knight, Rush) and some work horses in Peach and Gruber with some tidy imports, but the front office/management/owners failed them...

So the Kings returned... They had a VERY budget team, a bright light in the form of local boy done good Khazzouh who would dominate the league on his switched on games, but the team suffered from getting the nod late in the off season and not a lot of talent was around to put many wins on the board. But at least there were a few people in the front office that were working hard and the team, despite a horror run of losses, were putting in the effort and the crowds were responding (as much as the often "sitting on hands" Sydney crowd can get), but again, key front office personnel left (some voluntarily, some not) and things started to get messy...

Melbourne have gotten good crowds (not counting the "sell outs" as what's the capacity, 3500?) but when they went to the bigger stadium, the owners and FO knew they had to work harder and they did. And the crowds came. Sure, they were given handouts to tell them how to cheer and abuse other players, but still, the effort was there by the off court people. THIS is the key area that the Kings need to work on, and where they are suffering the most. Madgen is the only player left from the original rebirth team, he's very active in the community and is the face of the team. An exciting player (offensively *nods to anon*) and other than the imports, is the singular player that fans come to see (if the crowds waiting in line for him after the game to get things signed is anything to go by). His re-signing was vital. They need some more exciting talent (think Jerai Grant with a better shot) and some experience and leadership both on court and on the side lines and probably most important, the owners to pull their heads in, plain and simple. It's a business and you don't get what you want by sitting back and waiting for it to happen, as trust me, while the support from the media might not be there, if it fails in Sydney, they will be lining up to put the boot in to not just the Kings, but the NBL...

Exactly Isaac. Bring the kids to you.

Ive never liked the whole 'But that wont work in Sydney, its too hard to get around' mentality. If you organise an event and give everyone enough notice, people will be able to get there.

If a team makes the effort, generally the people coming to those camps will too.

Its pretty crazy to suggest there should be no Sydney team. Logically there should be a team for every capital state city in Aus. Whilst I dont agree that the Sydney team MUST be successful to have a strong league it dosnt hurt if they are strong.

What is needed though is a connection with the local fanbase. Many teams engage with their local schools, hold camps.. clinics etc. its all about letting the kids know who the players are, see that there is a path to play the sport professionally, to keep fit and active and to put the brand in the community so its in the minds eye.

In another thread someone said 'but Sydney is too big for that'. Melbourne is also geographically a big city, Perth extends out a long way too. Both these teams seem to cover it okay. Clubs need to put such activities into the players contract when they sign up... and that player might change their minds and not do so.

How about CJ Bruton as assistant/or head coach for Sydney?

"yes, a cheap underachieving team can still get out there and spread some hoops love but if a team is so poorly mismanaged and eventually folds for a second time, that too is a selfish act in my opinion."
So in order to avoid folding, they should just fold? Makes sense.

I'm agreeing that Madgen wasn't a good defender (most of the time) but the same has been said about Rotnei and other offensively minded players... I'm saying that there were glimpses of him being able to get there if he makes it a focus... I agree that Harvey was a real big liability on D, one of the reasons (despite him being a nice guy off court) why I think it would be a big problem if he was retained...

I talked to Harvs after the final game and he said that there was an offer on the table, but he didn't know what he was doing... He said that if he played anywhere, it would only be with Sydney, nowhere else... I had to fight hard my reflex action of :O as this would be terrible to get an offer out there so early... Great guy off court, really nice, great with fans, always up for a chat, but he's way too injury prone and such a liability on D it's not funny... The trouble with owners acting before thinking... White and Harvey were two guys that weren't going anywhere anyways, and could have waited until later...

White is a work in progress, but I think this will be his last season to either pick up his D and/or get a much more consistent outside shot as he gets left open a LOT...

Brad Hill, more him being underused, was a great disappointment this season... It started off well but it was like he'd banged Hammer's missus once Young came in... The fact that he'd come in for 5 or so mins and put up some great numbers and then not be seen again was a mystery... I doubt he will be back, and anyways, you'd possibly want an import to possibly fill that spot, so he'd no doubt be looking elsewhere...

@Isaac: it was talked about that a key factor of him coming back was being able to play in front of family and friends after being OS for so long (and sitting on the end of benches for a large portion of that)

@anons: any talk about rathering no team at all is just ridiculous... I agree with a lot of other points re: ownership though, and it's not always about budget, it's about giving a toss and putting in the hard work doing the little things, being professional, getting the brand out there, not just expecting things to come to you... After Young got here, I didn't see anything pushing him other that on social media, which is a waste as you're already preaching to people that follow you... Getting new faces and bums on seats to games last season was where the management REALLY fell over... No promotion, no creativity with where they are located on the middle of the city... that's what is REALLY frustrating me as a Kings fan...

@bowtie: *kissy kissy suck up noises* ;)

@Isaac: Always funny to hear about being "entitled" from a 36ers fan ;) (not you personally, of course, but this place is full of them!) But seriously folks, yes, it's well within their right to run a budget team, but a coach isn't where you should be skimping... They targeted an ex-NBA player this season just gone, he wouldn't have come cheap, so they're not afraid of spending money, it just has to be spent wisely...

As for Heal, I never had a huge problem with him accepting the NZ role, the reason behind it and the time that it might have taken away from NBL-related prep and stuff would have ranged from minimal to noticeable, depending on his feelings regarding the team at the time... I don't blame him for looking elsewhere after his team was screwed up and he had to shoulder the brunt of the blame publicly...

The icing on the cake for me was him spitting the dummy after the Hawks match and not speaking to his players first. Announcing it that way, when the timing really did nothing and only hindered the team morale was selfish and just a dick move...

@Anon#210: Agree and disagree as well :) I think (and have said before) that the strength of this team will be able to be determined whether or not Garlepp starts or comes off the bench. I'm a huge fan of his and I think he deserves a good chunk of minutes as he's done well with hustle plays and not really having anything run for him, but if we can get someone like Peach (or even Wagstaff), I think having Garlepp off the bench would be that extra depth that we're craving... I think he's got the strength and can certainly match up defensively against the usual 4/5s that are running around the NBL...

Ellis is still a work in progress... more a 3/4, but he's still a bit slow to match those like Weigh... He had some good hustle plays and had his shot in early, but that faded as the season went on... I think with his extra time on court in the SBL with the Senators this off season and a full pre-season training and games, I think he will come good, keeping him was a must, and I hope will pay off and not have him run back home to Perth after 14/15...

Madge I think I sort of agree mainly because his defence suffered at the expense of having to be relied upon to work so hard at the other end... Get a proper play maker, take the pressure off him having to bring the ball up and run point as much (I know Hammer said that Gaze did a lot of that in his career as well, but was still not a fan of the experiment) and have some more well-run scoring options (and USE THEM!) and that will give him more energy to expend on the defensive end... Part of the trouble was he was matching up on bigger SFs, as well... Hopefully he can target that his D was lacking a bit last season and can be his focus after a healthy off-season this time around... I think he's definitely a starter in this league, anyone saying that he's not is a bit weird ;)

If White is used to put on opposing guards defensively and can make that outside shot more consistently, then as a 9th/10th player is a good keep... Does a lot locally and is a Sydney boy... Same with Garlepp though, but to a more extreme level, he needs to be position 9/10, not first off the bench, otherwise the depth is an issue...

AJ wasn't used properly and was the beneficiary of rough treatment at one end and was called for very soft fouls at the other end constantly, so you could tell his frustration getting to him... He was only really ever going to be here for one season, it's just his star started off bright and then sort of fizzled, so I'm not sure if the experiment for him worked... Maybe if we signed Bevo, he could have stuck around, but even after the last game, talking to him, he wasn't keen to come back... I'd love to see him in purple and gold again, under a coach that could get him the ball properly, but I just don't think that will happen...

I don't doubt Cotter's credentials, and like someone has said before, very similar to Bevo before he signed on to the NBL, but it's not what the Kings need right now... They need an NBL-experienced coach to regain a lot of respect that has been lost the last few years... They need an experienced coach to be able to run the team that they've been given the controls of and, apart from the few good re-signings so far (Madgen and Garlepp) be able to recruit not just good talent, but some superb talent.

Hammer is 5-0 with the Wellington Saints in the NZNBL. Goes to show that the owners have no idea!

To be fair, he's got a pretty stacked team, doesn't he?

Last week of "no touchy" for free agents, you'd like to hope that you'd have a coach in place, but I guess you'd also want a proper one, so maybe that could be worth the wait...

So many decisions and moves to make this week and it's currently (at least public facing) a rudderless ship! :(

I think if you're in a position to hire someone like Smyth, you'd make him HC, not an assistant...

If his reviews are as mentioned above, then yeah, he'd be great, also, technically an ex-King, so there's that... Good basketball brain, enough experience and credentials to hopefully demand and get no interference from the owners, with hopefully enough contacts to bring in some more quality players...

But like everything, it's all a matter of whether the management want and have thought of him and whether Phil would consider the move (not sure what he's got going on at the moment) and whether they'd be offering the right amount of money...

Getting the coach right is the first and probably most important decision they've got to make, and they can't be tight with the purse strings either...

Out of interest, (and because I have no clue) WHO are the owners of the Sydney Kings? Is it some Hedge Fund? A Bendat style overlord? Do they own other sporting teams?

@jonno - Bevo would obviously be top of my list for a lot of reasons, but it's been talked about that he's not interested already, so he's out of contention, unfortunately... He's not to be blamed of course, the organisation IS a basketcase and not one of those "looks good on the surface" ones either... They'd be kidding themselves if they think every coach currently in the league or any coach following the league didn't see that mess with Hammer getting abused by one of the minority owners from his corporate box and thought "thank God I'm not coaching them!"

I have to admit though that rating coaches of the past isn't a strength of mine, so I wouldn't be able to say whether Smythe, Black or Westover would be any good, although I think I would cringe if Westover was considered, but more from a personal perspective, I think he's a bit of a dick... I enjoyed watching him lose his head during timeouts when he was coaching the Tiggers, but doubt I would like it if he was a Kings coach... All three WOULD be preferable to someone who hasn't (recently) been an NBL-level head coach for a number of seasons though...

Gorj still has a season left in China and he's on SO MUCH more money than what would get him back into the NBL, so like has been suggested with us getting over getting Damo (which I'm not going to let go until he re-signs with Perth!) we need to let Gorj go...

The kings owners are destroying themselves

Agree... they need to pull their heads in and their fingers out...

I've been fairly ok with Hammer's coaching period up until the latter half of the season and certainly by the end of it... He's certainly not to blame for Young/Carmouche/Sanders mess, and some credit to him must be given for being able to get Sanders back after dealing with him properly... I think though if it had been another non-God fearing/forgiving man, they might have told the Kings to fuck off though...

That concession being made though, Hammer lost most of the team by the end of the season, whether by his inability to adapt during games or to figure out plays/train them to get the ball to the right person at the right time (AJ had more games where he had 6 shots or less than he had more) and adapt to teams changing it up... I thought he was good to come in and fight hard, but when the chips were down, he didn't have what it takes.

Kings need a proven experienced head coach now and the owners/management to put their trust in him and to get on with promoting the team and getting bums on seats...

Game day entertainment looks terrible when comparing to the Wildcats, whilst I'm not trying to kick the violets when they are crumbling again... Hopefully during this off season teams can talk about game say entertainment amongst themselves and hopefully improve the spectacle.

I don't really see how Hammer is to blame, when he's on your team then you love him, when he's not then you love to abuse the fuck out of him. He is a polarizing character and everyone on this forum is basically saying they don't see him improving.

Good luck to Shane, I reckon he will be more successful than the Kings in the next 5 years.

The kings owners are destroying themselves

They have been a bit of a debacle - surely they are capable of better results with the right people in place, both on and off the court. Another team with potential that eventually simply passed unrealised.

Hard to disagree with a lot of that last post, although in fairness, the Sanders situation was management driven and by all accounts, even by Sanders himself, was handled very professionally on a personal front... You have a chance to get an ex-NBA player, you sort of have to grab it, I just think they chose the wrong player to bring on board and they of course chose the wrong player to let go...

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, it's hard to fix the problem when the problem starts at the top... Unprofessional and often incapable owners/management doesn't breed a positive situation that encourages the best quality personnel to join the organisation. I think a few peoples hearts are in the right place, wanting to get an NBA player and actually spending the money. Just the execution and the choices surrounding that were really stupid...

A stupid choice would be expecting Brian Goorjian to come back and hiring a sub-par coach in the meantime... Being quoted as possibly signing a "caretaker coach" in the meantime, when they were in the hunt for the best coach that they can get, was just stupid. They need to get a high quality coach and trust them to build and run the team, with no drunken owner interference.

Get the right coach, especially before the free agent open season period starts, and you can start rebuilding a quality team that the city can get behind^. Starting with high quality local talent.

I keep saying it, but they need to target Damo, Cadee, and another local quality big to help Tommy out. My pick would be to get Petrie away from Adelaide, but Wagstaff could be tempted away and having a big that can shoot from outside would be nice. Bring in local boy Angus Brandt who had a solid college career and groom him long term. We really need the support staff behind the team to get the most out of our players. Perth brought in Nielsen to work their bigs, where was that level of support for our guys?

^ - this of course requires the Kings management to get off their arses and actually do some promotion other than facebook posts. While they're in the city proper, they need to maximise the benefits. Get people knowing about the game beforehand, there's absolutely NO city presence from them in the area during the season. People walking two blocks from the stadium down the main street of the city would have no idea there is a game on that evening. Bring in more than the one pub, get two for one ticket deals flooding the city, do whatever it takes to get people in the door and let the quality product sell them on coming back. Better to have half the empty seats taken up on half priced tickets and have a better atmosphere than having a half full stadium barely making any noise.

Get the right players, get an exciting product and once the people are through the door, there is a higher chance that they will return...

Has a certain import been cut again from Sydney for next season?

Beveridge!