Hoops

NBL Rd12- Melbourne vs Perth

That might be the key factor, now days many more hoopsters with talent in Europe and the NBA than in the 90's!

Different time, just different...

koberulz, I think NBL attendances and recent history of NBL franchise folding etc backs up my point about the NBL standard being rubbish these days.

Popularity has nothing to do with quality.

Nostalgia has nothing to do with it i still love watching NBA, college and euroleague.

Sure, but nostalgia is causing you to overrate the quality of the NBL in the 90s. Seriously, go watch some games (the Wildcats have a DVD set featuring all their championships, if you don't have any old tapes). They're nowhere near as good as they are now.

Wookieee, were Kings fans calling Madgen out for his flopping? You know, the same ones who are always vocal about Flopphage and snipers and all the rest...

I made comments at the time that once he got pinged for a tech for it, that should have been it and that any further flops would come at the detriment to the team... Just like Redhage from the start of the season, he's since pulled his head in and I think has been called for warnings based on his (previously deserved) reputation...

Whether you're the worst offender, or do it once a season, if flopping is such a massive blight on the game then everyone should be called out for it every time it happens, but they're not. For instance, I don't imagine Oscar Forman tweeting about Demos every time he flops.

Are you meaning calling out publicly on it, or punished for it in-game? The consistency to which it is being called is really the huge problem here... We've all heard the guidelines from commentators recently about what Mal Cooper says should be the reasoning behind a warning/tech call for flopping, but the refs are unable to call it properly. We have players who are koalas in Worthington getting away with a lot more crap than Redhage pulls, and no calls, you have Madgen, I think a round or two ago, get pushed off by the offensive players, which in any other game would be called an offensive foul, get called as a tech (or just a warning?) against him... We had Beal called for flopping in the game in Sydney for pretty much exactly what Redhage did but who got rewarded for it? We've got legitimate defensive plays that don't get called offensive fouls because the defensive player doesn't "sell it" be it because they might be bigger than the other player or some other reason...

If your point of view is "I hate when Player X flops" then you're not really against flopping, you just dislike the player.

In the context of this thread, I don't have any opinion on the flopping other than the comment that I don't think Redhage flopped that hard to have warranted a tech or in any way that any other shooter doesn't try to milk the and-1. The majority of my comments have been regarding the Wildcats fans who act all hurt because their precious Wildcats player is being "unfairly criticised and persecuted".

As for "butthurt Kings fans" I think I'm the only Kings fan in here that has made any comments, amongst all the brave anons, but please feel free to highlight any others... as for being butthurt, any such accusation when that isn't the case, really just keeps fuelling my point that any time a non wildcats fan dares to criticise a Wildcats player, whether they're the worst offender the league has seen to do something in years or not, this crap comes out...

Kings fans are in no place to complaining about the wildcats flopping when they have Madgen lol

I have to admit, the way Redhage fell, it certainly looked like a flop (and I'm a die hard wildcats supporter). Having said that, I don't know what all the carrying on is about he didn't get any other benefit from selling the foul other than what he was deserving of anyway, and that was the contact on the hand resulting in a foul shot.

IMO the only reason this conversation has gone on for so long here was because Shawn Redhage did it and unfortunately with the reputation he has, everything he does gets scrutinised, analysed and discussed. So basically, yes he sold the foul very well (as do a majority of NBL players) and yes we are all still going on about it because it is Redhage.

Just in addition to the flopping calls, they need to start reporting suspect flops and going to video review either during the game( although this would slow down the game even more) or a post game review with fines/penalties being issued ( multiple offenders suspended).

@ Anon #507896 - you keep proving my point... When Madgen was "exaggerating the contact" last season, fans everywhere were jumping on his case, similar to when Cody did it... Madgen was targeted early this season as well and I'm fairly certain that we didn't escape that happening without some commentary... Of course you're going to see people commenting more on Redhage doing it, because he's one of the worst offenders and they're sick of him doing it... I personally think in the first half of the season he pulled his head in with the flopping tech foul introduction, but he's got his reputation, now he has to live with it, and so do Wildcats fans...

@ Anon #507916 - he did? Good, I must have missed that, thanks for correcting... I think he's been the worst offender this year that gets let off constantly, but maybe it's his incessant whinging at the refs after nearly every single play that is wearing me down...

"In the Gaze era the NBL was great basketball, the current standard is rubbish!"
You should try going back and actually watching some of those games without the nostalgia filter, and watching more than one modern NBL game. Games now are miles ahead of games in the 90s.

Oh, I don't care who does it, call it as I see it regardless...

I think flopping in basketball is a fairly ordinary way to play the game, just as bad as diving in soccer!

Just like you missed an e? Not really... Perth fans whinge and complain that they see some of their players getting called out on things they do, saying things like "well, it's only because it's a Wildcats player that people are making a big deal about it" like it's not like the player hasn't actually earned that reputation... You don't see people saying that Daniels or Jervis or even Damo (who really gets in there and tries to establish position and sometimes oversells things) are flopping every game, do you? No, it's the players that actually do it... The fact that there are Wildcats fans out there acting like they're being unjustly singled out is crap... The comment that I quoted was the perfect example of that...

Love the fact that we kicked your arses in the gf. Deal with it sixers

The flop rules are pretty simple. If a Perth player does it, it's the biggest travesty ever and a massive blight on the game, and we all look at ingenious ways of inserting the word "flop" in to the players names.

If anyone else does it....well that just doesn't happen so no one has thought that far ahead.

lol... I love how Perth fans are so sensitive about their own players but they're often the first ones to jump on other teams players for stuff... It's fine to be supportive and stick up for your own players, but this overwhelming sense of being hard done by and the victim of unfair criticism just because people are calling out one of your players for doing what he's been doing for years is just ridiculous... Redhage has gained this reputation for a reason, so when he does it to get his team an advantage, of COURSE other teams fans are going to jump on him...

That being said, I don't think he did anything that most outside shooters do regularly... Players like PC, Cornetto (mmm... Cornetto...), even Gibbo kick their feet out, over selling any contact on the shooter... it's been called like that for years and no-one should be surprised when a defending player takes a run at someone shooting from outside and makes even the slightest contact, that there's a foul called... When Beal got pinged for a flopping foul on a 3pt shot in the loss in Sydney, I had to triple take as that was really such an unconventional call...

All in all, I was more surprised (not really, as he's the new Melbourne Koala) that Wortho wasn't at least warned for one of his several flops in the game... Not to mention that over selling of Dennis'(?) elbow... No contact and then a second later throws his head back like he'd been slapped...

edit:

3) The shooter could see the contact coming and was intimidated and/or bowled over - disadvantage offense AND a possible unsportmanlike "T"

So you're saying because the shot went in, it couldn't possibly have been a foul? Rightio then.

Hmm . I'm saying that the contact on the arm ( if any) was after the release of the ball. ( of course you already know that Contact on the hand is legal as the hand is part of the ball)

As you already know - For any non-T foul call the ref has to go through 3 stages of decisions

1) was there contact - IF no - forget it - IF yes then -
2) was that contact illegal - IF no - forget it - IF also yes then
3) did the defense gain an advantage - IF no - forget it -IF ALSO yes then

FOUL call -

Number 3 is the killer.

If the advantage was that the shot missed - then its a clear call.

if the contact is before release - then its caused the shot to miss - disadvantage offense.

If the contact is after the release, and

1) the shooter is prevented from following his shot for a rebound ( eg held by the body/arm or hit to the ground) - disadvantage offense - shooting foul if done before shooter hits the ground with at least 1 foot.

2) if the shooter was prevented from landing safely, OR his expected landing path was threatened - then its a foul for the shooter on the basis that the shooter has been disadvantaged

2) The shooter could see the contact coming and was intimidated and/or bowled over - disadvantage offense AND a possible unsportmanlike "T"

If the shot went in - then the question is where is the advantage ?

the answer is that the shooter hits the floor because of contact while in the air (no 2 above) - that's the disadvantage, but Redy hit the floor because he wanted to, not because of the contact ( if any) on the arm.

Its a simple process - but requires concentration - which is not easy at the end of a game and you have been working as hard as the players ( no subs for refs)

"He was bowled over you absolute morons"

sorry I' know I'm feeding the troll here - but check the video , reddy's feet actually land exactly where they took off from. BUT once he touches down he makes himself fall backwards by collapsing the legs and throwing his arms backwards and his upper body follows.

Its Gaze's old trick of - "kick out my legs to catch the defender" in reverse :-

Beautiful body coordination, Reddy just sells the dummy perfectly to all those feeble minded enough to be needing a pacifier, unfortunately that included one official.

If the refs were actually on top of it , 3 point counts, T for flopping, shots at the other end ( provided they had already given Perth a warning - if not - then a warning.

Hit on the arm or hand while taking a 3 = missed shot.

Ref blew whistle after the body hit the floor.

game video had the perfect angle on the gap between the players - frame by frame shows no contact even on the arm - ref called it from behind.

really really bad call.

Redhage was in the act of shooting and hit on the arm/hand. It was a foul, there's no disputing that.

It the referee made the call because he fell then that's over-anxious and/or poor refereeing, but they may have actually seen the contact and made the call because of that, in which case I'd disagree with you, Bear. Moot point, however, as neither of us know.

So, can we agree on this, Redhage keeping his feet or falling was 100 per cent the reason the ref would make that call?

He keeps his feet, there is no call, do we agree?

Minor brush of the arm whilst mid-air = loss of concentration and body control.

Maybe it was a flop given that Redhage does so at any given opportunity, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on that play.

The defender never moved his arm forward to make side ways contact, he was in his cylinder the whole time.

On the flop call you guys are on about, the replay suggested the slightest of contact on the front of Redhage's arm was possible, but he collapsed like the was crushed by a jumbo jet landing on him, 100% a flop!

Crowd was apparently around 7k, certainly looked every bit of that.

I enjoyed the game, for the most part very entertaining, as an impartial observer it was my first NBL game since the demise of the Dragons...

Some points I took from it, just my opinion, doesn't matter one hoot but I was there so here is what I noticed:

Lots of flopping, but also very physical too, very hard to officiate at times.

Second quarter was the low point for both teams as they struggled with zone defense and could make a shot for a period of time.

Kickert only hit his first 3 pointer in O/T, either great D from Perth or some other issue, but it didn't help the 'Ballers' as United call themselves.

The crowd was impressive, almost a full stadium, great atmosphere that would have been better without spending ridiculous cash on those annoying plastic clappers (they give me the clappers)...

Although he didn't score heaps, Damian Martin is a star in this league and unlike the United guards, he and Beal actually look to make their team mates better players, very unselfish (again unlike the Melb. guards).

Two words on Knight, the difference! He is not super athletic, untidy, rough as a sawn post, tough as a rock, reliable and a game winner, he was the difference.

Dennis is selfish and no where near as valuable to his team than he should be.

Patton is not utilised as he should be and he should be involved more by his team mates, this would open the game for everyone but they choose to ignore him and he should look to go to a better club I feel...

Great O/T game and a close result, both teams can play better but it appeared Melbourne tried to play Perth's game, unfortunately fell just short!

What was the crowd number today?

Oh well.

I was at the game,very entertaining and great atmosphere, I don't like bagging the refs because there's no game without them, but they where pretty ordinary both ways,should of got the ball to wortho for buzzer beat 2 years in a row, better team won on the day

This never would have happened to the Tigers D:

An article worth a quick read posted on BA website regarding Patty Mills, Aron Baynes, Luke Nevill, Joe Ingles and Ater Majok.

Link: http://linky.com.au/4ucyk