Hoops

Kings under New Ownership

Since when has there been an enforceable salary cap?

I think you're using history a bit to suit your own needs... Crowd numbers on average in the last season were similar to what they were last season, I agree that they dropped from about 7500 around the time of the first championship, but the more championships they won, the less they got out there and rested on their laurels... They expected the people to come just because they were winning, but I never got the "boring" label... My wife came to the games in those days and she didn't have any interest in basketball but always enjoyed herself...

Pretty sure Brian didn't recruit 5 Boomers, but he certainly turned a couple of Div 2 players into Boomers... One of the best qualities of Goorj was that he got the best out of all his players, even those like Kingma!

9 imports in one season is mental, I don't think we're saying that the madness is limited to these owners, just that they've so royally screwed things up...

The recently departed owners I understand gave their time and cash on the hope of getting a dividend back in the third year. So i'm not sure if they would have gone on losing money next season.

Well they should have done a better job then... Having NO marketing and running a team like your own fantasy basketball team will never turn out well...

Mcleod would bring a grinding system, Vickerman enjoyed the fruits of Lemanis in Auckland, an American Coach would need a great deal of help in recruiting local labour.

Agreed... But Vickerman still managed ok with a good team with some ups and downs and for the American coach, it seems that JvG is going to be very hands on, so I don't think that would be a problem...

Oh yes the new owners are keen to risk millions on having a super team. Will this mean ignoring the salary cap or have they not been told yet

Maybe they got some tips from LK, or his other mate just south of Sydney who went bust to avoid all his debts then came back hard, trying to buy them a championship too?

I'm in agreement with wookie, I want to build a club with regular support, like NZ and Perth. Talking about semi finals should be kept in house. Part of the problem with Gorgian teams is that the players changed yearly, favourite player here one year gone the next. I know players have to chase the money but fans relate more to loyalty. Winning is required but want to build our team.

Be careful you might get the wish you ask for. The history of the Kings franchise could easily be a movie. In the eighties under Bob Turner and others the Kings averaged about 6000. Gordgian arrived with his robotic boring but effective system and despite winning championships, having recruited 5 Boomers the crowds disintegrated and atone game the numbers dropped to 1490.
In Bruce Bolden's day with the Kings they imported and released 9 Americans in just 1 season. so claiming that recent disfunction is a one off is making me smile.
The recently departed owners I understand gave their time and cash on the hope of getting a dividend back in the third year. So i'm not sure if they would have gone on losing money next season.
Mcleod would bring a grinding system, Vickerman enjoyed the fruits of Lemanis in Auckland, an American Coach would need a great deal of help in recruiting local labour.
Oh yes the new owners are keen to risk millions on having a super team. Will this mean ignoring the salary cap or have they not been told yet

Daz,

I completely agree about building for the future and have been a big advocate for it... I think shooting for a championship straight away is a dangerous game and while it should be a focus in building a strong and competitive team, a bunch of one hit wonders that aren't going to work as a team or be together a few seasons, is the wrong way to go about it... I think the talk of that from the Kings new owners and JvG is just a commitment to doing the right things to get the team back on track and have quality players... We had a couple last season, but some really poor decisions as well... The depth wasn't there, they were just filling gaps and that didn't do anyone any good...

I've been a big Cadee fan and I think expectations of him have been a bit unrealistic, which is why I was happy to have Markovic come back this season gone and be able to work with him, although that didn't work out. Both him and Brandt are great local options that should be in it for the long term... That ticks both the long term and local boxes, which is important, especially when trying to bring the West back into the Kings family...

I think a large part of not being able to grow long term success is not having those 2-3 long term high quality local players... Madge was starting to get that way, but then got injured and then was clearly focused on getting his numbers up so he could go OS... With Jules back, hopefully we can fill that hole, but there needs to be more... We can't just rely on imports who may or may not return, and that's why I was glad when JvG was quoted as saying they were chasing high quality local talent as well, so fingers crossed...

First things first though, 10 days until FA officially is up for grabs... No teams yet have announced any resigning players, so fingers crossed that the Kings are in the hunt for what we need...

Wookie,
You're right that under-performers shouldn't be retained just so they can have continuity. Lack of continuity is mostly a symptom rather than a direct effect.

But its also about having realistic expectations, and about the way a team goes about building a squad. Looking for players who will continue to develop, rather than trying to build a championship winning team from scratch. Its about looking a few years down the track.
Look at someone like Cadee as a hypothetical example: Is he good enough to be the starting PG? Possibly not, but could he get there in a season or two, and go on from there? That's a judgement to be made by the coach(es) but its the question that needs to be asked.

Under the PPR system (which rumour has it may be scrapped) the Wildcats get 12 points discount for loyalty. That's better than a whole extra top-notch player. If the system isn't scrapped then other teams really need to start building those discounts to be competitive.

I heard Andrew Gaze turned the job down.

In the Nbl in the last three years.so gordie m , vickerman off the top my head.

That has coached in the NBL in the last 3 years, or just has coached in the last three years?

Correct info would be appreciated... I know it's only been a week, but still! #Impatient

I'm hearing an ex Nbl coach that has coached in the last three years. I'm also hearing Hudson is gone.
Anyone got correct info:)

Kings new MD is saying all the right things but if they hired a coach who isn't respected by the players or instill defense then expect the Violent Crumble to return!

BTW, why did McQuade write this story.?

He's been disrespected by the Kings ownership and office staff for years. One would think by now he would of had enough of being treated like SHIT!!

Or.. is he sucking up to Van Groningen to get in good with the new ownership group to become their media manager again?

I think Hill has more to offer than he showed last season as a stretch 4, but ideally it would be as a 7th or 8th man. Having Hill and Tommy - assuming you don't have Tommy starting, which to me is key to improving our woeful D - is a waste as they both fill a similar role, although Tommy is obviously miles better on the offensive end right now.

Kings should take this opportunity to massively overhaul the roster, especially in the backcourt. Cadee is great as first guard off the bench, but we need a steady, experienced import at PG, and someone a bit like Madgen at the 2 spot.... ;)

Hill playing for north Sydney in the Waratah league under Ben Knight can't see him being moved on.

Changing coaches and ur roster every year doesn't help, i think perth and new zealand prove that, people come in and try to win straight away and it never happens. You gotta build it with keeping players & imports (beal & ced Jackson) and even trying to keep coaches, bringing a guy in for a year or replacing someone without giving them another chance doesn't help.

See, this argument always annoys me... What happens when you get the wrong people in, do you persist with them even though they're shit? You'd prefer to keep players like Thornton just because he's been on the team? The logic is flawed... Teams like Perth and NZ are completely different cases as they've brought in quality players or players at very early stages of their career (in NZs case, have brought them up through their development schools?) and grown them into starter quality players, or in Perths case, benefited from a team going under to score a quality coach and a handful of quality players.

In the Kings case, we scored good with Madge, but like all other recent quality Kings players, he left for greener pastures overseas... Jules did it, so did AJ and Bose, what other players would you have REALLY wanted to keep over the last few seasons since being back?

If you haven't coached before 'STFU' all the keyboard CEOs, Owners & Managers u guys fucking kill me

This old chestnut, you're full of them today... Just because people haven't done something doesn't mean they can't have an opinion on it or criticise it... It's been pretty clear a lot of the flaws of the Kings the previous years and just because I've never owned an NBL team, or run an NBL team or played on an NBL team or coached and NBL team, doesn't mean I can't pick out the people who are doing a shit job...

What would happen if members got public transport like the Wildcats have?

The trains and such are actually pretty good, but I think it would be good if a special timetable was run at the times that there were games and travel was included in the price of a ticket, like NRL/AFL games do... Having bus shuttle between the venue and the nearest station on the main line would be a big help as well... Really push the connection between the team the stadium and the city itself...

Not sure how possible this is, but hopefully improving public transport to the venue is on the (long) list of things to look into...

Timing games with other sports/events out there would be good too, especially since the arena is MUCH closer to the main sports hub and not stuck in the back corner... Ticket discounts for both events would be a good way to get extra people through the door...

Can't imagine Garlepp will get a new contract as Hill is still contracted

I'd rather they move Tommy to the bench and cut hill loose, tbh... I know he had a raw deal last season with some injuries and odd playing time, but I can't see how he really fits in properly and would rather him go than Tommy...

"even making statements like we must play finals is counter productive"

I agree. I cringe a little when I hear things like that.
Everyone wants to make the finals every season - that should go without saying. Half the teams won't though, that's the mathematical reality. That doesn't mean they're all failures as organisations.

Sydney finished the season with the wooden spoon and the perception as a bit of a basket case, so IMO there is plenty of scope for them to have a successful 2016/17 without necessarily making the playoffs.
They need to not go 6-22 again. I don't think any NBL fan wants to see any* team be that bad, because that's bad for the whole league.

Just for starters they need to put a roster together that doesn't scream "bargain basement" so that fans actually have some cause for optimism. Hopefully find an import with some entertainment value to go with it. They've got a lot of seats to fill now.
Their record in the 6 seasons since re-launching is 58-110 (0.345) and their best season is 12-16. Ugly stuff. Results-wise, just getting near .500 would be a good start.




* Possible exception: Perth Wildcats ;)

Let's hope you are correct Angus, even making statements like we must play finals is counter productive. Cats and breakers show how it's done, get a list that can play and tweek it yearly, get an excellent coach and set reasonable goals but try and keep a core group together so the public get to know there players. You can then buy your favourite player singlet and no it should be good for a while.

After what the new ownership has said re: the mistakes of the last couple of seasons both in the import and coaching situations (pedigree over production), I would be surprised if we see the likes of Bynum - one of the worst flameouts in NBA history - and some unknown American coach.

What would happen if members got public transport like the Wildcats have?

Andrew Bynum in the Kings team?

That would be great to see them go the twin towers with Khazzouh or Brandt on court with him.

Can't imagine Garlepp will get a new contract as Hill is still contracted

The word is they are getting a big name coach from overseas, don't have the names yet.

They're looking to do what the United did, they brought in a coach with no head coaching experience, but put a good regular season team on the floor, it bit them in the ass in the finals.

Honestly nothing to do with the coaching, ur only as good as your players, case closed.

If they get a great coach and comeback with the same players they'll finish last again.

And stop with the fucking Goorgian, he's not coming back. there are still good coaches in Australia, but no one gives them a chance.

Changing coaches and ur roster every year doesn't help, i think perth and new zealand prove that, people come in and try to win straight away and it never happens. You gotta build it with keeping players & imports (beal & ced Jackson) and even trying to keep coaches, bringing a guy in for a year or replacing someone without giving them another chance doesn't help.

If you haven't coached before 'STFU' all the keyboard CEOs, Owners & Managers u guys fucking kill me

Why wouldn't you want Vickerman? He's a proven winner.
You could argue that he benefited greatly from Lemanis' legacy and the Breakers systems, but at worst he will be able to bring what he has learned.
(At best, he's the guy that took a struggled, fractured team, brought them back from the brink, and to a 2nd GF.)

Besides, personally, in a situation like this, possibly looking at rebuilding, an experienced coach is what Sydney needs.
The new ownership and management is a HUGE step in the right direction, but if you want to retain key players, and attract new quality, a coach who's a known (winning) quantity is better.
Especially considering that Brissy will be trying to hoover up all the available local talent.

Jamar Wilson was apparently last offseason - he expressed interest in the Kings, but the Kings weren't interested, opting with the NBA draft pick. Same was apparently true with Lisch, but I haven't heard that from anywhere outside of Boti (the Wilson comment comes from one of the new ownership group).

Kings should take best available coach and players, some Sydney locals that can play would also be good.
Gordgian coached Kings in there most successful time but the fans were low in numbers yet when Turner coached Kings the crowds were up. Sydney like winners but it also has to be entertaining, Childress is a must with a few good defensive players plus a point guard to get team around the floor.

Wow, I didn't know that, let's hope it's a team option cos Brandt still has some huge potential.

I wasn't doubting Vickerman, just questioning whether he was right for us, although with that being said, I'd love to have coach our squad.

Wilson is an interesting option, one that I didn't even think of, personally I wouldn't mind having him, however I'm pretty sure he said that he's played his last season in the NBL, although I can't confirm that.

For Aussies I wouldn't mind a rookie (although it would be best to avoid it), however for imports, just because of our track record, I think we should stray away from them...

Great news re: the new ownership group, obviously. A strong Sydney team is good for the league - as an added bonus, it's good for me too. ;)

As far as coach goes, at this point, I'll take experience over every single thing else. Vickerman is exactly the kind of guy we haven't gone with previously, so more than worth a roll of the dice if he's interested IMO, unless a better candidate appears. Before the change in ownership I'd say that was doubtful, but I guess we'll see now.

Good opportunity to start fresh with the roster, too. I hope Brandt is under contract but thought he wasn't (player option maybe)? Inking a strong Aussie starter would be a huge boon, and agree with the comments on going with experience over "flash" with the import spots - I would have loved Jamar Wilson last season, and I'm not even a huge fan of his. Just having a guy who can handle pressure and put points on the board consistently would have been huge.

I don't even think you necessarily avoid picking rookies over experience either, just base your personnel decisions on basketball reasons, and not entertainment reasons... at the end of the day, flash might put some bums in seats for the short term, but it's wins that will keep them there long term..

Rex, Brandt has an option, apparently... Not sure if it's team or player...

I agree that Dennis or Bevo would have been much more ideal, but since they are both locked in for multiple seasons, the next best (current) option I think is Vickerman...

That is, unless the Basketball Gods shine down on us and they can afford and convince The Great One to return...

Would be happy with DV though...

Zodiac, Brandt is also under contract.

As much as Sydney really need a coach, is Vickerman the right coach? Don't get me wrong, he's a great coach, however I think we need a more vocal coach (Dennis or Beveridge would've been perfect).

They said they will start Allphones arena with a capacity of 7000 and build from there.

Yeah, apparently they can structure it in phases, but it's still going to struggle to work the atmosphere... Hopefully winning will help, and an improved game night presentation, but the crowd really struggles to keep themselves motivated in Sydney, it's really shocking tbh, so anything working against them won't really help at all...

Vickerman confirmed as candidate for head coach

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/31085275/new-owners-demand-nbl-finals-for-kings/

They said they will start Allphones arena with a capacity of 7000 and build fro m there.

There was a photo taken of Andrew Bynum in Sydney today. The pic is posted in the Sydney Kings Fans Facebook group.

Bring back the Tigers!

So the take out from that SMH article is

Gone:

Head coach Joe Connelly
CEO Craig Meagher
Head of Basketball Operations Tim Hudson

Players under contract:

Julian Khazzouh
Jeromie Hill

Josh Childress has a 'special clause' to come back if he wants to.

Well at least this will bring some stability to the Kings and help them attract and retain talent.
IIRC correctly most of their players are out of contract, and a few of them might have been targets for recruitment, with better organised teams seeming a preferred destination.

Assume they will be going after Vickerman (and maybe even Gleeson) with both barrels.

This article sheds a bit more light on the sudden ownership change.
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/basketball/sydney-kings-change-of-ownership-sees-them-move-games-to-allphones-arena-20160313-gnhptf.html

Most people in and around the club know of Tim, his connection to his father, the Razorbacks and West Sydney and the decisions he has personally responsible for in selecting players.
Let's hope that interference is no longer. Slect the best Head Coach and leave him to it. No drunken board members ever again, no board members interfering an anything ever again. If the HC who gets the job and gets his own side and fails so be it. Bye.

Not familiar with the area, is there no public transport?

Trains are pretty close, but it's off the main line on pretty much it's own dedicated line, so if there isn't a large event on, it's not very frequent to get back to the main line...

When the Kings played their previously there was a deal where you could pre book for the entire season at a reduced rate. It wasn't too bad and they should look at doing that again. Also meant missing the lineup of people trying to pay on the way out

There's trains, but no one in Sydney wants to catch trains...particularly at night

Not familiar with the area, is there no public transport?

$25-50 for parking? Jesus. That's ridiculous.

Welcome to Sydney, where not only sporting teams compete for your dollar, but parking venues do too!

I haven't been out there for ages, but I remember last time the Kings were out there we pre-paid parking which wasn't so bad... I can't see it being that for the first hour, that would be stupid...

The Kings had a members survey where they sought interest for members parking discounts, I certainly hope that's the case at the new venue as well...

It's hard to judge Timmy completely, as he's obviously had the same bosses as everyone else to work for, and he's had his good points, but the fact that coming in he wasn't really qualified and his daddy is (hopefully soon to be 'was') the chairman and overall, who is partly responsible for running the team into the ground, he's got to cop the negative part of nepotism as well as reap the reqwards of it...

Apparently there is a more detailed article coming out today from that Foxsports guy who interviewed JvG yesterday... very keen to hear if it's got any substance in it...

I think parking is $5/hour or $25 flat rate:
http://www.allphonesarena.com.au/venue_information/parking.aspx

$25-50 for parking? Jesus. That's ridiculous.

I don't no why everyone is bagging tim Hudson , how many of you know what he actually does. My thoughts are that he had probably to do what the old owners wanted on shoe string budget. Also Sydney is so different from Melbourne, people will start to turn up when they start winning. Homebush is much better for parking but they better work on the cost to park, on memory the first hour is $25 and I think it goes less after that but for three hours at least $50, plus tickets and food you got one expensive night.
I have followed the Kings for years and am very happy with what looks like happening but it's better to take it steady than in two years be back to where we are as the new owners realise it's not the cash cow they thought it was, sometimes short term pain for long term game.

That's a great idea Bear... and could possibly happen, look what happened with United this season just gone... Their huge run of home games at the start combined with going all out with marketing and getting as many bums on seats and providing not just a great on court but off court effort as possible, really set them up...

Hopefully the combination of owning the arena and knowing that getting off to a good start and throwing money at it could help kick their season off to a great start (provided they have the coach and team behind them to actually put the wins on the board)

Part of the problem with injuries last season, apart from the freakish nature of them, was that there was no cover when the very few key players went down... If we had Lisch when Chill went down, the damage would have been lessened, no doubt, but we had Thornton... Hopefully they can fix that this season with a lot more top quality starters and better bench depth, so if something like that DOES happen again, they're better covered...

A huge thing was that they didn't start training until probably nearly every other team had started pre-season training... Sure, Cairns were one of the first and that didn't help them, but hopefully they're the exception to the rule...

Harvey Lister has been linked to NBL quite frequently hasn't he?

Apparently him and JVG and visited the Lakers and Spurs recently to see how it's done.

Lister is stated to expecting Kings to make the finals next season, anything less being unacceptable and willing to finance it.

I see that Telegraph story was simply a reprint of the Fox Sports article.

Lots of contradictory reports regarding who is already gone & who might be staying. Fox Sports also quoted Tim Hudson as follows:

Sydney Kings head of basketball operations Tim Hudson is excited about the new majority ownership, and hopes it can revive the franchise.

“It’s exciting. It’s very exciting,” Hudson told foxsports.com.au.

“To have that kind of brand behind the Kings brand is a massive association.

“I’m excited about what this partnership means, and what this could do for the Sydney Kings. Now that a structure is in place, decisions can be made.”

They featured a photo showing JvG with AEG Odgen chairman & "Kings chairman Phil Hudson".
http://www.foxsports.com.au/basketball/nbl/sydney-kings-announce-allphones-arena-as-new-home-venue-introduce-new-managing-director/news-story/9a4f9bb2818c484801b4985106bc3bb2

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/basketball/sydney-kings-announce-allphones-arena-as-new-home-venue-introduce-new-managing-director/news-story/9a4f9bb2818c484801b4985106bc3bb2

I see Tim Hudson quoted. That's a worry and definitely talking ICC December!

If I was asking for their dream draw next season start it may look like this.

Home game v Illawarra promoted as a huge rivalry game.
Home game v Brisbane promoted as a State of Origin type of game, welcome the new team and all that.
Home game v Melbourne United and bring the hype.

May cop an away game, but then try and get another one at home, then another rivalry game at Illawarra.

Just to set up the season, maybe some tough games, but the NBL will be tough going as teams work themselves out in early games, however something like this as a starter could be what attracts Sydney people back to the hard wood...

There has been talk last season of a change and I for one am glad it has occurred. Otherwise in another few season the Kings would be gone.
If you are worried about a conflict of interest look at LK owning the NBL, the United and the Bullets that's of concern if you are that paranoid that MANAGING venues is a coi.
Hopefully next season will be a blinder and the Kings haven't left it too late to secure a shit hot coach who the Hudsons selected nor any of their recommendations for imports of players.