Hoops

Townsville Crocs withdraw from NBL

mukalukas - good question. Based on the NBL press release, it's not clear whether the luxury tax will be calculated based on actual salary spend or on deemed salary spend. The press release talks about using deemed salary spend for "salary cap purposes".

Also, the release said the luxury tax proceeds would be held in an account for use to help clubs struggling to meet the new salary FLOOR. Again, will that be base don those clubs' actual spend or deemed spend? What will happen to any luxury tax proceeds left over after assistance (to reach the salary floor) has been given to the struggling clubs?

no one is driving 8hrs to see a team, that isn't theirs, play a regular season game. No former crocs fans will be doing that.

Yeah but how does the salary "cap" tax work , certainly it can't this season unless teams already admitt & decide how much they will exceed the "cap" by so the tax can be collected immediately & distributed asap to help the regional teams in recruitment & retention . It can only be collected & distributed during the season or @ the begining of next season for that season , meaning this "transition" season so to speak the regional teams this season will stuggle to afford players until that money flows down , that "tax" money needs to be advanced to the regional teams now so they can compete in the recruiting of players this coming season . Looks like @ this early stage most of the "cap" tax will come from United with all the rumoured singings they will have which in essence is LK's money anyway.

Absolutely mate, you'd imagine that Townsville would be the top beneficiary and you'd imagine that Cairns will be the benefit the most now...

Does anybody believe that Townsville basketbsll fans will drive up to Cairns to see some NBL?

It's Sad.
I'm the first one to say that teams need to be viable, but what I can't understand is how this happened with the prospect of the salary subsidy coming in? Would have thought they would be the number one beneficiary?
In the AFL, clubs like the Eagles, Dockers, and Pies, subsidise the basket-case clubs to the tune of millions every season. Why? Because without them you don't have the competition.
Teams like the Wildcats will presumably be paying out big on the salary cap "tax" this was SUPPOSED to be distributed to teams like the Crocs. Who gets it now?

At the end of the day, for a team like TVL to survive, you need a phenomenal proportion of support from the local community, and sadly I think they pissed off their fans just one too many times.

Thanks DJ Rod, I remember their 20 year celebrations and them saying that Rob Rose was their first retired jersey but I hadn't seen the rest.

Absolutely agree with Haz, we keep reading that the fans were alienated but now the team is dead, do they care or find it funny or sad or what?

So we all know that Townsville had an awful draw with most home games being midweek; so the serious question, who's getting those awful midweek home games now?

NZ seem to enjoy Thursday games so they can have those but what about Wednesday? Cairns and Illawarra most probably but I think the most interesting feature of the draw will be Brisbane. Will they get a favoritable draw. Will LKG give them games on weekends to make the team more valuable and earn back the investment

As sad as it is to see the Crocs go, its no surprise. Very little support from Townsville pretty much ended this franchise.

I understand that there is significant resentment made from fans in general to how the club treated some of it's most popular players, and fair enough too. But how long can you hold a grudge for? I think most if not all clubs have made boneheaded decisions in the past, but generally these get forgotten or forgiven over time.

For Townsville, they could never recover from their mistakes. The fans abandonment because of mismanagement and waning interest in the game (along with a struggling economy) was the death of this club.

Being a perennial loser on the court didn't help much, but you need to stick with your club even during the losing years if you expect to get better again. Having said that, the Crocs were one of the best teams to watch last season - just their unpredictability and heart made them a must-watch team. Local's didn't care.

So long Crocs, I'm afraid you won't be missed much though - from your own town or from the league. I certainly hope the fans of Townsville realise what they have lost.

Ten didn't broadcast any Townsville home games in 2015.

Yes Brisbane were always destined to replace Townsville. The Fox coverage in the Ville came from the TEC nothing o do with the previous season. Simply put local basketball apathy killed the Crocs.

One factor I don't think mentioned is that Brisbane essentially replacing Townsville was a part of the deal with Fox Sports. So much room for growth in Brisbane as opposed to Townsville which the locals have turned their back on anyway.

Remember Channel Ten too wasn't happy about broadcasting games in Townsville either. I think that last year of the Ten deal when the Crocs were playing out of that tin shed RSL Ten only televised one Crocs home game all season I think it was.

The way I look at it, is if you have a threshold population of a million, then lets say you alienate some fans... you have a chance of making new fans amongst the percentage of population you havnt drawn fans from already. You have room to grow your audience. You have 200K population total in your area, then once the segment of population gets to the alienated point then you dont have much play room to get them back or get ones ones. Its just about Ratio to scale.

Cram, didn't the Crocs finish ahead of Sydney? Sydney spent up significantly on their roster. Apparently one of the most expensive.

Crocs and Hawks have been competitive enough. And an extra import would've helped.

^ "they've held the league back"

What do you mean? Held it back from what and how?

I think we might be overestimating the spending teams are about to do. We have a big contract for a couple of key players in the league but that is it. The money may not end up being that big a difference when the dust has settled.

Townsville was probably going to fall even if the changes did happen. Part of me hoped they would because they've held the league back.

Matthew,

I don't think a blanket "population threshold" is the way to go.

A place like Wellington only has 400k odd people, but it has the sponsorship dollars and the following to be a very successful venture.

The Saints currently have at least 20 odd sponsors, some of those being major New Zealand companies.

They could make the transition very easily.

Blame Clive Palmer ;)

Problem with wealthy owners at times is that when the passion or money drys up there is no team left. Who can forget the firepower Sydney Kings or that child care bloke that owned the ballets and went bust.

Yep, well said, podge.
Townsville's population didn't stop their NBL team from being the league's model franchise for a few years.
But mismanagement is a tough thing to bounce back from in a cut-throat market, and a trashed reputation is an even tougher thing to repair.

The NBL is entering scary (to me) territory with the financial path it is now heading down, but even if nothing had changed it's clear that the Crocs would still have been in trouble, so I don't think there's a direct link between the two things in this case.

Great posts Rod and Podge.

Cram, is your comment about the salary floor ignoring the prospects of equalisation? Three imports too would've made life easier on-court for any small club.

I think as the above two said, the problems are bigger than that.

They got fans offside with a succession of moves (Homicide, Rillie, stadium, etc). The sporting landscape below the top tier is hard enough without doing things like that.

FWIW, I do believe Homicide and Rillie were the right moves, but the transition was poorly handled.

by that logic no capital city team should have ever folded.... Townsville do a great job at supporting the NRL team and it takes alot more cash to run an NRL franchise.

Fact is you can't view this in a vacuum. T'villes demise doesn't nessecialriy have anything to do with the new NBL rules or the state of the NBL. Fact is their economy is in the doldrums at the moment due to the commodities crash and business investment isn't great. The serious corp money that is there is being swallowed up by the Cowboys and they aren't getting bums on seats. The bums on seats issues IMO is a mix of a collapse in grassroots bball support, mixed with disillusionment and the fact times are tough for the family budget, buying basketball tickets is a luxury that more and more cannot afford.

If you're LK and the NBL do you keep t'ville afloat in the face of limited corp and wider community support? Or do you move that cash to somewhere else where it can make a big picture difference for the game? e.g. beefing up the marketing, professionalising the refs etc.

Broad sweeping statements like: small markets don't work or benefactor leagues don't work, just don't add up when the rubber hits the road. Each market is different, each market and model has it's own challenges and advantages. The crocs demise isn't because of just one issue, or one decision that was made last week, it's something that's been happening slowly for a while. I don't see it as being indicative of some underlying weakness of the NBL as a whole, I see it as a damn shame and indicative of the economic reality of competing with powerhouse like the NRL in a town going thru some serious economic issues.

Larger codes have the luxury of being able to financially support teams that aren't doing great because of TV and other revenue sharing streams. If I'm the NBL and looking at a bigger picture, the priority now should be investing where they'll get the best bang for their $$, with the goal of being able to grow and support new/rebooted franchises in the future.

Just read 'proud's' comment about only Rob Rose's number being retired...

#7 David Blades
#21 Rob Rose
#100% The Croc

have all been retired - Mark Bragg, David Carmichael, Kevin Sugars and Pat Reidy were all added to the Croc's Honour Roll.

A sad day but unfortunately didn't come as a shock. Management should not have expected the NBL to prop up the club and should never have relied on that money. It's very unfortunate that promises were made to coaches and players including contracts being signed by players to return and new players to the league, some returning from Europe.

The Crocs brand has been dirt over the past 7yrs in the community and continually destroying relationships of fans, sponsors and volunteers. If you dont engage with the community, especially the basketball community, you wont get buy-in for support.

Given that and during a time where the Fire and Cowboys are so successful and the Townsville financial climate is dour, the Crocs were never going to survive.

My biggest disappointments is not winning a championship, losing the pathway to the top for our local juniors and the loss of real basketball friends who turned into family.

I especially feel bad for Shawn & Lani Dennis who had worked so hard to get to the point they were, they settled into the community buying a house etc and then were given a promise that they were going to be in the league but to have that all taken away. Players have a free agency period to hope they get another job but there is only 8 coaching jobs in Australian men's pro basketball that are all filled.

The Suns and Crocs will always be in my heart; I grew up with them as my family but it was not a shock to hear they were gone, nor am I overly sad to see them go... It has been very hard to see them operate as a shell of their former selves and not the model franchise they once were.

The NBL will never be back in Townsville. Cant wait to see how the next season unfolds.

Sorry, but you dont have a National Basketball team in a City with 200K of people. You dont. (I think Townsville have 200 k). We just have to realise that our competitions are always gonna have a smaller number of teams because our population cannot justify the scope of how we want out comps to be.

Frankly there shouldnt be any NBL team in a location of less than 1mil population.

PeterJohn, yes, this would quickly push the market back in favour of the clubs. I think those most impacted will be bench players from teams that weren't successful last season. So, guys like Djeric, Maynard, Young, Carter, Brandt, etc.

And the third import would make it even more difficult. Are you going to spend $60k for a guy in that tier, or gamble on a cheap import you can sack early without too much of a penalty?

In their favour though is the 11th man provision. Maybe the bigger teams use that on one of these guys instead of a rookie. I think for the cheaper teams, 11th man will be a minimum salary player though.

Tornado said exactly what I was thinking

With 8 teams instead of 9, does this mean players in that middle and bottom tier become a little less valuable in the NBL market? e.g., do Nick Kay or Oscar Forman command a little less in the market than they would have if Townsville stayed in?If so, will that affect the value the NBL sets on those players for salary cap purposes?

It's starting to feel like your team getting to the start of the season is tougher than getting to the playoffs in the NBL these days!

If the league bosses decided to run a sustainable model league rather than an arms race teams like Townsville could survive.

I hate to say it but this model is going the exact same way the League was when the Singapore Slingers were in the league.

Expansion into Asia makes annual costs for all clubs more expensive and why would Asia even want to put a team in the NBL - why not just submit a team into the Chinese League which has better players, better exposure for their corporate sponsors and more money than we have here doesn't it?

The league is headed for another flop as we've seen this model before!

Boti said "despite falling $690,000-$800,000 short of their 2015-16 financial projections."
Total mismanagement. An the NBL is culpable as well for allowing that to occur.

Look out Cairns, Adel and Illawarra next. I am sure exvy one will be equally as happy when they go.
People are talking here about one player possibly getting $300,000 or more, add in the next $400,000 to given to the bottom 5 players and there is $700,000. The remining $400,000 of the soft cap is to be spent on the remaining $400,000. That will get you not a lot. It's a recipe for disaster IMO.
Where is the extra money to come from? It won't be bums on seats. Even if it was a component, that's not sustainable. The end result is that clubs may if their lucky break even.
Common sense has gone out the door.

bums on seats and stickers on corp boxes is all that matters.

Benevolent benefactors isn't the answer either, the vast majority of teams that have gone under in the modern NBL have been privately owned.

"Id love there to be a big petition where 20'000 people sign it wanting Townsville re-entered into the league in 2017/18 but I can't see that ever being the case."

What good does that bring though?

People may sign a petition, but that doesn't mean squat if they don't turn up to the games or if they don't sponsor/invest in the team.

But that's the issue you see - a number of the same people in Townsville who are complaining about the Crocs exiting the league are the ones who haven't been going to games in recent years. It's irrational.

As alluded above, the SOS and rescue packages are silly.

Id love there to be a big petition where 20'000 people sign it wanting Townsville re-entered into the league in 2017/18 but I can't see that ever being the case.

A bit sad that Robert Rose was the only number retired in the history of the club.

I'd be personally still love a Tasmanian state team in the league as I think that could survive and even prosper in that market (spread out across all 3 major regions of the state) but doubt we'd get it.

Why would we want to lose Illawarra and Cairns just to add two other teams elsewhere... It's a huge shame that the license can't be bought by another and we can get a 9th team in the league.

Also a shame that with all this love of Asia that the investments aren't coming sooner and Our teams and the league can prosper.

As for being a league full of rich owners, Wildcats are owned by a bloke looking as crook as a Townsville home crowd and he won't be better so who knows what the landscape will be like when he passes, still no idea about Sydney and how much they will enjoy the market with so few people watching any sport. Brisbane is an unknown, Melbourne is still full of people hating on the whole United thing. Adelaide look like a regional team with how much they seem to skimp with the roster. And NZ coukd be anything with a potential new owner!

If Townsville actually had local support they would still be around but no one turned up.

I wont cry myself to sleep about this. This is just a necessary loss for the league if it wants to prosper. Deadwood has to be cut, and Townsville has been dead for years now.

I think the regional teams are going to fall apart, one-by-one, leaving a league that only populates main cities, is owned by businessmen, and pushes aggressively into Asia.

That is actually the best result for the prosperity of the league.

So while a few articles might have the headline "NBL is a basket case" (because they're so original), I will know that it is a promising sign if anything.

If Illawarra and Cairns also have to fall to bring in a second Melbourne or New Zealand team, then so be it.

The games are now easily available to watch and the product is solid and only getting better. The Crocs were a bad fit for a new vision. Just go back and look over their crowd attendances, take the emotion out of it, and this is the right decision not necessarily a popular one, but business isnt always about being popular.

The League bosses, there in lies the problem. Everyone used to criticise BA. Inept undoubtedly, but time will tell with Kestleman.

Guys this all sucks for alot of reasons, but its the right call. No one was going to the games, the Rob Rose John Rillie days are dead and burried. Its not a social comp, business wise its makes sense to get rid of the dead wood. Its harsh but this is for the betterment of the NBL and its overall sustainability. If a new set of owners come along and have large sustainable pockets then maybe later on they can re look at the region, but for now the right call has been made imo.

there is a stark difference between being viable and being rich.

Anon, that's not mismanagement. That's hoping for the best.

Boti had a nice piece balancing the realistic with the appreciative. Worth a read. Had these bits near the end:

With Brisbane represented again, there is a growing belief the League’s patience with the financial issues faced by regional teams is at or very near an end.

Capital city teams steadily will be the focus, with teams from Asia also expected to participate in the home-away competition, as early as 2017-18.

Wonder if Holmes and the players union had this in mind when the 3 import rule was cleared.

Unsurprisingly disappointing..

NBL fans at least we dont have to see Shawn Dennis in that terrible shirt anymore!

close Koberulz, they were being run by Australia's largest collector of NBL merchandise Clint C-Dogg Gardiner......

"No one can blame the current owners, why would you keep throwing money at a dead duck."
So why offer SD a 2 year contract not that long ago?

If you're going to just make shit up, why not be more creative?

I heard the club was actually being run by the owner's pet dog.

The point I was trying to make Isaac is that signing Dennis to a contract for 2 seasons is total mis managment. Nothing more.
They would know exactly what financial shape they were in and if they didn't mis management yet again.
Dennis has every right to pursue them for a breach of contract and so he should. The owners will have money. Equally I will bet London to a brick that they were trading whilst insolvent (again).
Once LKG walks all over.

If putting bums on seats depends so heavily on winning (compare TSV women attendance with that for TSV men), then Brisbane had better win lots of games.

Last thing we want is both Sydney AND Brisbane near the bottom, as that would pretty well be the beginning of the end for the NBL.

No one can blame the current owners, why would you keep throwing money at a dead duck. The town didn't support them , and sure as hell if i was in their position i'd do the same, as most would on here.

Sad for the players and coaches, pretty sure most will get a gig somewhere.

Koberulz they were probably completely unaware as a club up until the last minute themselves. Feel for the individuals for the Crocs who are now unemployed. Real sad stuff from a purely human point of view. Guess LK just said i dont want to spend my money in this area anymore. Cant argue with that, big city teams is what he will be looking to enter.