Hoops

Boomers need European experience to win medal

Bogut was a bit overzealous but the upside of having him out there is changing shots and whether it is the last minute or the first he was there to do that.

"Play probably started before Lemanis was aware Bogut was the one called for the foul."

You got to be on top of that shit. No excuses. The sub has to come straight in right there, or you get another guy to foul to stop the play. It's on the coach.

Agree with the comments re Bogie could maybe have been more careful. There were two blocks and one offensive rebound were he put himself at risk of his 5th before Rubio finally nailed him. It was odd.

But again, Andersen was at the scorer's table almost immediately. Play probably started before Lemanis was aware Bogut was the one called for the foul. The next dead ball was Bogut's fifth.

I had no issues with him starting the 2nd half.
The way I look at it though, a guy who picks up #4 that early in the half might only have "X" minutes of court time left before he picks up his 5th.
As a coach I would rather use those X minutes around the middle of however much time is left in the game, so that whoever is replacing him gets a breather. As a general rule, removing him immediately also means that your guy will at least be fresh again when he returns to the court, and therefore less likely to commit a sloppy foul out of fatigue. That one's not a factor in this case since it was right after the long break.

I would have thought that a guy as experienced and important as Bogut would, upon being whistled for #4, immediately take it upon himself to at least check with the coach. I also would expect him, once decided he would stay out there, to expect to be targeted heavily. I was disappointed with his 5th.

Who's to say how the game would have gone had Bogut not fouled out at that point. Maybe the Motum-led surge would never have occurred and we would have lost by more.

If you bench him on three, the game might not be there to be won in the final minutes. Remember, we'd only just clawed back a 12-point deficit at the time and were still down two.

Rjd - just maybe u take Bogie out so you have the chance to stick him on court for the crucial plays at the end of the game ..... Ie boxing out Gasol on the put back dunk, rim protection on Spain's winning play, your best passer to receive and get the ball to Mills safely on the the last play ....
You raise a logical argument but there's a reason there was a collective groan when he left him on and he picked up his 5th quickly.

"You start your key big with 3 fouls in the 2nd half. He draws his 4th early in the 3rd. And then u don't sub him immediately. I agree that it happens, but we can safely say we got that one wrong and I'm sure Andre would own it and want that one back if he could. "

I think this criticism is way over-emphasised. It doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny. Although perhaps my opinion on this is unconventional and in the minority. I have never liked the logic the must-immediately-remove-player-in-foul-trouble strategy, apart from employing it for players who excel down the stretch. Can anyone explain the logic otherwise?

Obviously, Spain was trying to foul Bogut out. If he was voluntarily taken off by Lemanis, then of course that achieves exactly what Spain is trying to do, especially while Gasol was still on court. Gasol would have taken over sooner. (By the way, recall that Bogut made 2 blocks between his 4th and 5th fouls). If we took Bogut out immediately after his 4th, Spain were just going to attempt to foul Bogut out as soon as he came back in. Same scenario eventuates, where, based on Spain's skill in sucking in refs to call the foul on Bogut, he was likely to be fouled out soon anyway. Alternatively, if Bogut wasn't going to get his 5th easily, then surely the strategy to keep him on court is valid, as we wanted to maximise Bogut's time on court.

Another factor is to decide when Bogut should be used. Clearly we needed him against Gasol as much as possible, who was on court when Bogut attracted his 5th. Also worth considering Bogut's free-throw percentage, so it is arguably better that he plays near the start of quarters rather than later in the quarter, in the case that Spain is in the penalty.

As far as I'm concerned, Bogut was in such foul trouble that if Bogut was taken off immediately after his 4th, had his minutes limited by Lemanis, then came back on and never received his 5th, Lemanis would be not achieving Bogut's maximum minutes for the game. So the real mistake would have been the coach restricting his minutes rather than trying to extract the maximum minutes possible by letting on-court events be the restricting factor.

If you are going to criticise Lemanis, I'd find something else more significant.

You start your key big with 3 fouls in the 2nd half. He draws his 4th early in the 3rd. And then u don't sub him immediately. I agree that it happens, but we can safely say we got that one wrong and I'm sure Andre would own it and want that one back if he could.

Mills' defender got a swipe to it and shook it loose from Ando on the last play, I don't blame the Coach for the play, it looked fine, Spanish d gambled and it paid off.

We were expected by pretty much all unbiased experts to come fourth in our group, crossover against a decent team, get cained and end 8th. We came second in our group, beat good Euro teams, made it to the bronze medal game and lost by a point. That is the reality of the situation. There was no failure by Lemanis anywhere in that.

So I guess we throw away the whole tournament where Australia otherwise played above themselves due to one bad game and a set that didn't go to plan, and we bring in some other coach who might possibly yield worse results that completely mess with an otherwise successful program? Yeah, sounds legit.

end of the day as a coach you are judged on results and lemanis failed to execute two games in a row, both at the start of the serbia game then again against spain leaving bogut in, not getting a shot off at the end. he doesnt inspire his players at all

Australian teams should continue to play the Australian style. Goorjian led Boomers teams struggled until he figured that out, and same with Brett Brown. When Aussie teams start playing the kind of game we play at home we become a matchup nightmare for European teams. The only things Euro teams have above us is they regularly play in pressure situations against top international teams.

Ajk, we had a horror SF, apart from that we beat France, Serbia, Lithuania and all but beat Spain. This Boomers team did not have an issue with European teams.

Given how awful the call was, Lemanis may not have been aware it was even on Bogut, too. Casey said on commentary they initially thought it was on Delly.

You can't sit the guy on the bench the whole second half either. No point sitting him on the bench in order to avoid having to sit him on the bench.

Starting him in the second half with 3 fouls was questionable in the first place. But to do that, and not react quick enough when he gets a foul 18 secs into Q3 is almost unfathomable.

Obviously wasn't quite quick enough. It happens.

Could have subbed him out at the dead ball when he drew his 4th.

Leaving your best post defender in on four fouls was beyond dumb

I don't understand the Euro experience stance. I mean, who would you ditch to make way for Maric? And who on the face of earth has more Euro experience than David Anderson?

It's not about teaching young Aussie players how to guard the P&R...it's about the defensive scheme.

Delly, Mills, Bogut, Ingles and some of the other guys know how to do it, Lemanis was just instructing them to do the wrong thing against players that he should have scouted better. Going over screens on Rubio? Going under on Teodosic, or Mirotic? It was pretty haphazard.

Maybe Lemanis had it right and the players didn't execute? Who knows.

Angola is not in Europe, or do tanking losses not count?

Let's clarify - I am not talking about the Spain game rather the Serbia game. True we were one call away from a medal, but if we played better against Serbia we would need to worry about the bronze.

The topic was do we need Euro experience to beat teams like Serbia - if you look at our record most of our losses when in this position have occurred to Euro teams.

This is why I think we need to look at the formation and style we play.

Yes indeed I meant bronze medal!!! It would have taken about 50 great calls to get us past Serbia that day!

I assume you mean bronze medal. I am not sure that the drubbing handed out by Serbia could be attributed to on bad call.

They had the pedigree, it was a core of quality experienced internationals, they just got dudded by a bad call which robbed them of the gold medal.

Not taking away anything from the boomers but maybe the team just didn't have the pedigree to get them over the line? This team has paved the way for future players to step up but the coach definitely needs to be looked at as it seems like this campaign was player driven and the coach was a bystander unlike team usa. Leaving your best post defender in on four fouls was beyond dumb at that point when Gasol was cooking and the spanish guards thrive in the pick and roll.

Also need to learn to play the pick and roll defence waaaay better.

I see a lot of junior rep coaches teaching it so it has started. May take a while to filter through.

We were 1 shit call away from winning a medal, playing the style we played.

I agree with LC #596929. IF we play our style well enough we can beat anyone. The US played their style every year and have had mild success (sarcastic tone).

Maybe some more reliable shooters, but the style of play is our own which the others will try to replicate.

Agree with others that Lisch looked out of his depth. Maybe tense nervousness from the big occasion affected his shooting. Still a jet in the NBL.

Damo maybe more minutes on their shooting guards playing his usual brand of in your face D.

We were one bad call away from a bronze medal (maybe two). To me that's not a failure. Equal best performance at an Olympic tournament.

I'd go with Goulding in that main scoring role in the qualifiers, ala Mills in this tournament, with the hope that his D continues to improve. He will be 29 for the China World Cup. Still prime age, with more international experience under his belt, and a lot more time to be intimately familiar with the Boomers system. He's not the type lacking in confidence, but I imagine experience as the main scorer on the team can only help. At the least, he can be good injury insurance for Mills.

It will be interesting with changes in WC qualifiers, BA will require a very big squad - 20 - 30 players, which may provide necessary games for building the system and experience. Also the funding will be a key - the team should travel to Europe and play against a solid opposition.

I would not keep my hopes up when it comes to developing shooting to appreciative levels (40+%) - KD, SC or CA were known shooters at the age Simmons, Exum or Maker are now, they just improved it to scary levels. And on the current American team there was always someone making these shots, too bad we had only Mills. So we will need 3-4 Mills' type of shooters on the squad to make sure we have enough fire power. I was really surprised by Broekhoff and Goulding and a lack of their contribution. It could be a lack of experience and confidence, they will only know.

The only two criticisms I have of Lemanis this tournament and aside from that he did an outstanding job were the Serbia game where he (and our players) had no answer for their defence to the tune of being humiliated into only scoring 14 points by half time and the last possession of the Spain game, we needed to draw up a play to at least get a shot off.

I'm willing to concede Serbia probably kept a few cards close to their chest in our group stage game against them but that SF we couldn't possibly have been out-coached any more.

Tend to agree Mick.

I could take or leave Lemanis. Don't love his play-calling, in game adjustments or rotations. He makes lots of mistakes, even if he is good at the big picture, ego-management stuff. If he's gonna stay on he needs a tactician assistant, because him and Gleeson are the same kind guy even if they have different temperaments: big picture guys. And I don't think Longley is an Xs and Os wizard by any stretch.

If he's gonna stay on he needs better assistants.

If we can't keep Lemanis for now, should we go with the assistants sharing the job as caretakers till Lemanis is available?

@Isaac: I think Maker becomes that stretch guy. He can't shoot right now but his shot isn't completely broken, a few seasons of NBA under his belt with the best coaches and development in the world and you never know what he, Exum and Simmons will be shooting like in a few years. Delly couldn't shoot that well coming into the NBA...

They could also never figure it out from deep, but here's hoping that's not the case.

That rim protector role is going to be key if Maker doesn't become that guy (he has the tools). I don't see anyone else we have coming through the ranks with that rim protector skillset who is good enough at the highest level.

I wouldn;t change the coach or style. The reason we had success against European teams is because we DIDN'T play like them. And certainly our playstyle was better to watch too.

Bring Lemanis back and maybe have an assistant do his chores for him during the NBL season. I wouldn't tamper with this at all.

I dont know what happened to Ingles. He used to confidently shoot 3s and look to score, appears he has taken his team first, facilitator role he plays for the Jazz to the national team.

In this tournament, the Boomers finally found their identity and style of play. We should not deviate from that too much in the next 4 years.

Lemanis and the team deserve a lot of credit for how the team all bought into what has proved to be a very successful game plan. I have been critical of Lemanis in the past, but he got the team going.

Any potential change in coach should not try and change too much.

Yes - one terrible night, but we were right there with a chance to win against the #2 ranked team in the world for a chance at a medal.

Correction to the correction, they were 4th, probably largely due to that SF disaster. They were 2nd at the end of the group phase.

Correction, Australia was 5th in scoring.

We can enter Eurovision, Euroleague just seems like a natural progression

Broekhoff was useful, only his shot wasn't falling. Considering his shooting clip in recent seasons and in the 2014 WCs, it was an anomaly for him. His D was solid and fit in well within the system. Broekhoff must remain as a major rotation player going forward.

Ingles didn't have scoring on his mind in this tournament. This team doesn't have many scoring options, really. Delly and Bogut are not natural scorers; Baynes can put points up, but rather inconsistently, although he was good in 2014; Andersen was impressive as a spark off the bench, but we will be without him soon; Ingles can be more of a scorer if he chooses, but for whatever reason he deferred to others.

This is also what makes this tournament so remarkable, that we were second in scoring with only Mills as a major offensive weapon. I want us to continue this defensive focus in selecting rotations, but some offensively talented players with at least respectable D will need to be found.

Agree with calls that another shooter is needed, but I wonder if we'd be so concerned now if Broekhoff was hitting shots at his career rate (or his 2014 WC rate) and Ingles was confident with his shot.

Exum, Simmons, and Maker are all under 33% shooters from 3-point range. In the case of Maker and Exum, they are relatively poor outside shooters but very willing to put up those shots. All should know the importance of developing an outside shot, so hopefully they all improve substantially in that regard.

Rather than picking European players to beat European teams. Asian players to beat Asian teams , etc. we just need to pick our best players period. Naturally our best players are going to get scouted to play in the best leagues in the world, first NBA, second Europe, third everywhere else. Unfortunately NBL is not a very strong league so if you pit NBL players against European players they will probably struggle, NBL players normally seem out of their depth at international level.

Similar thing happened to Socceroos a few years ago. We were sending a lot of players to Japan and Korea clubs and picking them for the socceroos because we figured playing players from technical leagues we would be able to better compete with their national teams on a technical level, but all that happened is we ended up trying to play *their* version of football, which naturally they were better at than we were.

Theres no secret recipe to beating European teams, other than picking our best players and coaching them well.

I think we could use another shooter, which I don't think Simmons, Exum or Maker are. And I think we could use a tough, defensive big (a la Steve Adams) to succeed Bogut, again which I don't think any of those three are.

That's not to say they don't have useful skill sets. I think Simmons should be very helpful especially - imagine him in that team played Ingles' minutes for example.

I think LV said in this or another thread that we don't have a stretch 4 to replace Andersen (who you'd think will be the first retirement from this team). Mirotic was very handy for them.

We just need funding so we can travel to play more games against top sides.

The best part is how well Simmons and Exum (and Maker) are going to slot into this team. There is an immediate need for all of their skillsets, it's just going to provide so much more balance, even if we lose experience.

At this level of Basketball, I'm not keen on a part time boomers head coach. Got world cup in 2019 and Olympics in 2020, the coach needs to put full-time prep into all the potential teams. If Andre is coaching in the NBL, it will be hard to juggle both. That extra time a full-time coach can offer may get us over the line and medal. Also fresh ideas might be needed. Andre failed at both world cup and Olympics to get a medal he has to take some blame, as he has lost in clutch situations in both. Can't blame all the FIBA Euro centric refs. A new coach could bring fresh ideas to the table. Someone like Joey Wright would be an interesting coach, or the Melbourne United coach Dean Demopoulos I'm a big fan of, or foreign coaches overseas certainly would be tempted to have a go at Boomers job. But Andre has taken this group as far as he can go, and the new players coming into squad a fresh coach with fresh ideas could be what's needed to get that extra leap forward at the clutch times.

"I think you would agree that our pathway is through European teams now and so we need to have a team that will be able to play that style of basketball.”

Couldn’t disagree more. We tried mimicking under Goorjian and Brown and were poor at it, not surprisingly. We were successful in this tournament playing an Australian style that our opponents (except one when we had a horror night) really struggled to deal with.

That’s why we were 3-2 against European teams, with one of those losses extremely unlucky on a poor call. Lemanis has developed a brilliant style, done a good job of building a group with international experience (Lisch was our only rookie in this tournament) and we need to continue down that path.

Playing a Euro style with Simmons and Exum in the team would be madness.