Hoops

Kings vs 36ers, Nov 28

If you don't want to be "barelled over" then don't purposely stand in the path of a midget moving at high speed.
If you do choose to stand in the way then do it legally or cop the foul.
It's pretty simple.

I can't believe people keep saying Maric was bracing himself.

He did the complete opposite to bracing. Bracing is a defensive maneuver, Maric did an offensive maneuver.

If you're getting ready to take on contact, you're going to make yourself solidly grounded vertically and maybe twist the body to take it on the shoulder instead of full front.

What you're not going to do is lean in, remove your solid grounding and take up extra space to create the contact.

What Maric did is totally counter-intuitive to the concept of bracing. If anyone here tries to brace themselves that way in a game, then you're doing it wrong.

The USF call was BS, as was the foul call. Maybe technically it was a foul but that has not been consistently applied all game or season so it should not be called.
I don't buy that Maric was maliciously leaning in - he was just bracing himself. You can argue that Randle is half his weight but he'll still be carrying a fair amount of force at that speed.
If Maric had stood completely upright he would have been barreled over and probably called for a flop.

Either way, the big man gets screwed once again.

I don't recall ever seeing anything that specific at the time. I'm curious as to how the NBL thinks that would have helped.

Last years release

In follow up to the NBL’s “MELBOURNE V NEW ZEALAND GAME REVIEW” announcement on Monday, 9 November 2015, the league is writing to confirm and provide further details regarding the new rules for the Instant Replay System (IRS).

Please be advised that effective immediately, during the last two minutes of the 4th period or extra period, administrative and technical matters can be reviewed by the IRS at the discretion of the game referees. Some examples of administrative and technical matters are set out below. Please note that this lists some possible examples only, and is not intended to be exhaustive:

- To determine the exact time a foul or violation occurred
- To identify the correct player who committed a foul
- To determine if a score bench error occurred
- To determine the correctness of time out situations
- To determine the status of the ball at the time of an infraction

Referee judgement calls made in the last two minutes of the 4th period or extra period are not reviewable. For the avoidance of doubt, the IRS cannot be used to reverse or review a referee’s decision to call an infraction, or to not call an infraction.

The intent of the new IRS rule is to minimise the possibility of administrative and technical errors at the end the of games and is not intended to try and eliminate all human error whatsoever. Minimising inherent human error is the role of training and education.

The IRS cannot be used to reverse or review a referee's decision to call an infraction, or to not call an infraction.

Koberulz, you are correct that the league altered its IRS rules after the United v Breakers game but it did not extend that to reviewing judgement calls. The IRS cannot be used to reverse or review a referee’s decision to call an infraction, or to not call an infraction.

So it couldn't have been used on the Sunday game you refer to.

Yet another bad refs fail.

Thanks also for the video. Looks like a foul, but not USF. And maybe only marginally a foul at that.

Any other Sixer should've warned Randle. Maric was almost camped there.

In answer to your question Paul, I can't recall an unsportsmanlike foul call on an illegal screen ever, anywhere. And I've been watching basketball since 1978.
It was a foul
Unsporstmanlike was a bullshit call.

The rules were changed after the Melbourne-NZ fiasco last season to make any and all calls reviewable in the final two minutes.

This also could have applied to that awful charge call on Johnson on Sunday.

Thanks Anon, I stand corrected on the use of replays then. I can only conclude that not even available technology can be used to assist in improving the sub-par officiating performance. Disappointing.

SteveK2, for someone who just sprouts the rules maybe look up the IRS rule. You can't check via replay the action as apposed to the outcome.
46.12

Be authorised to approve before the game and use, if available, an Instant Replay System (IRS) to decide before he signs the scoresheet
• at the end of the period or extra period
▬ whether a shot for a successful field goal was released before the game clock signal sounded for the end of the period.
▬ whether and how much time shall be displayed on the game clock, if:
▪ An out-of-bounds violation of the shooter occurred.
▪ A shot clock violation occurred.
▪ An 8-second violation occurred.
▪ A foul was called before the end of playing time.
• when the game clock shows 2:00 minutes or less in the fourth period and in
each extra period,
▬ whether a shot for a successful field goal was released before the shot
clock signal sounded.
▬ whether a shot for a field goal was released before any foul was called.
▬ to identify the player who has caused the ball to go out-of-bounds.
• during any time of the game
▬ whether the successful field goal shall count for 2 or 3 points.
▬ after a malfunction of the game clock or the shot clock occurs, on how
much time the clock(s) shall be corrected.
▬ to identify the correct free-throw shooter.
▬ to identify the involvement of team members and team followers during a
fight.

Still debating the technicality of the Maric screen I see.

Thanks for putting up the link Koberulz, made it easier to look at it closely with the benefit of frame by frame analysis.

As per FIBA rule for screening, Maric had both feet set for well over 1 sec, he gave an in-motion Randle more than sufficient time and distance to easily avoid him IF Randle became aware or notified. Unfortunately, Maric did lean outside his 'cylinder'. His shoulders at moment of contact had advanced past his feet. No argument it was an illegal screen there.

Koberulz already explained the Unsportsmanlike rule clearly. Did Maric caused the excessive, hard contact in an effort to play the ball? With both feet set for maybe 1 to 1.5 sec, Maric certainly did not cause the contact even with leaning outside his vertical cylinder. Randle was solely responsible for causing the contact because he wasn't aware of where Maric was positioned and his in-motion speed made the contact caused by himself to appear excessive. Maric was certainly under no obligation to notify Randle of his position and provided him with sufficient time and distance to avoid contact if made aware.

So technically its an illegal screen but not unsportsmanlike foul. Would the refs be able to ascertain all that within 1 sec? Looking at the replay it appears that he wasn't watching Maric prior to contact. The ref was running and looking at Steve Blake dribbling up the court, saw Randle ran into Maric and immediately called the unsportsmanlike foul after seeing the hard collision with Randle on the floor. Ref was clearly judging the outcome of the action and unlikely had enough time to see and evaluate 'only the action'.

FIBA 2104 article on Unsportsmanlike foul I can find searching on the web:

37.1.2. The official must interpret the unsportsmanlike fouls consistently throughout the
game and to judge only the action.

I could only assume an updated 2016 rules would still have the same article.

So with video replays available to the refs in 2016, why didn't he review the 'action' as opposed to judging the outcome? Thoroughly deserved to be booed off the court for the poor officiating.

Rat10 learn the rules if you're going to try and add something constructive... No free throws are awarded for offensive fouls...

I wouldn't have called it unsportsmanlike but he definitely put some extra mustard on it. Foul for sure.

Sixers were up 6 with 1:20 to go. If the foul wasn't unsportsmanlike then Randle still goes to the line and sinks 2 putting his team up by 8. Bit of a stretch to suggest that call would have changed the outcome of the game so not worth getting too fussed about I would have thought.

It was a foul, but the movement was not pronounced, I just watched it again. Can anyone list a screen that's been called a USF this year, or other years?

It wasn't like it was minimal movement, he clearly moves - leaning in on the screen which is an offensive foul every day of the week. It also isn't as though the precesent hadn't been set by the referees throughout the game, they were pretty tight in calling all the moving screens that occurred - even those with minimal movement. As I said before I didn't think it was an unsprotsmanlike but it was still a boneheaded play by Maric - you're not going to get away with moving on a screen like that right in front of a ref.

Can anyone find an example where a similar screen was called USF? I can't remember the last time I saw any screen called that way, let alone one with minimal movement.

If I read one more post saying player A was moving it cant be a charge I will literally throw up. Learn the rules

@Freethrows, if you want to talk about size meaning the foul call, maybe Knight going flying when tiny little Randle runs into him would constitute a charge, don't you think, considering Knight was even still moving, so much for Randle's minimal chances of being called a charge
It would be great if the refs called the illegal screens and moving screens properly all the time.

@Freethrows I take your point however many screeners are called for moving their hips into the defender as it's deemed a "moving" screen. My point remains that miminal movement or not it's still movement which makes it a foul.

I will add also that moving your hips on a screen is a little different to dropping your shoulder which is what Maric does.

Didn't see it. What is the consensus on the correct call? No call or foul on Maric or something else?

Maric clearly turns and drops the shoulder, leaning into Randle. In NRL he could get put on report and in the AFL he would probably get 4 games.

@Rat10, if you call every "slight" move by a player setting a screen, you call almost every screen. There are very few examples of screens set, where the player doesn't move his hips laterally.

The fact of the matter is, and always will be, that big guys setting picks are more likely to be called for fouls with smaller guys running into them than vice versa. This applies to charges in the paint, too. If Randle (for example) charged into Nate in the paint, he'd bounce off. Nate may not get called for a block, but the chances of Randle being called for a charge are minimal.

Not unsportmanlike but definitely a foul. It doesn't matter that there was "minimal" contact - Maric definitely dropped his shoulder into Randle. The Foxsport commentators clearly saw the foul this way also.

Minimal as opposed to no contact is often the difference between a ref calling a foul and a ref not calling a foul. It's what makes reffing a basketball game difficult - slight sideways movement is often the difference between a block and a charge being called.

How many times did Bogut get called setting screens to get Curry/Thompson open because he was SLIGHLY moving his hips or his but into the defender. The screener needs to be stationery and not moving and Maric fails this test.

It does seem like Randle likes to go down, i'm never sure whether it's just the result of momentum, strong fouls and him being small or whether he adds a little extra theatrics to it.

I was happy with the call because it finished the game for the sixers but there is no way that was an unsportsmanlike in my opinion. It was definitely an illegal screen though because he dropped the shoulder. It just looked so bad because Randle was at almost full tilt and he hit a large brick wall.

Kobe & others are arguing Maric was bracing himself - anytime you lean across you're not bracing. That's not even under consideration because that's not how anyone braces - ever. That's how you make sure you create more contact.

I must be on my own in this view, but when a player leans his body across and moves out of a vertical position (Maric was anything but vertical in that screenshot), he's the one creating the contact and causing an offensive foul, particularly when you make a little step movement across which Maric did, albeit slight.

That addresses why I believe it was a foul on Maric. The unsportsmanlike, I view it in the same way as the commentator - shoulder bumping a players head (even if unintentional) and body bumping another players body are two different degrees when considering whether there's excessive force. The latter doesn't warrant it, but in my opinion the first does.

Which means if you're going to commit the offensive foul, do it without dropping the shoulder and most certainly do it without collecting a players head.

If you're vertical and not dropping the shoulder and Randle runs into you, then it's his own fault. But that's not what happened.

Jawai and others might do it, but does the rules actually allow it?

You've read this far through the thread and think there's a consensus?

Mal Cooper is on Twitter claiming the USF call was correct.

Didn't see it. What is the consensus on the correct call? No call or foul on Maric or something else?

As every screener does most of the time. Have a look at Jawai setting a screen some time.

You're judging the result. As did the ref. If Randle doesn't hit the deck it would be lucky to be called a foul. In the game situation as it was unsportsmanlike was a terrible call

Bracing himself? He isn't bracing himself!

Maric specifically drops the shoulder and leans to the right to collect Randle.

How does leaning to the right to cut off a player count as "bracing"?

I know the image sucks, but you can specifically see him using his legs and body to lean in to stop Randle getting through his right side.

No, because that's not what that sentence says.

You love denying the obvious, but Maric moved his shoulder, he created the contact.

Movement was minimal, and didn't create any contact that wouldn't have happened anyway.

By that logic, everyone's head is always vulnerable, so every foul should be unsportsmanlike.

Excessive, hard contact caused by a player in an effort to play the ball

urning and lowering your shoulder is always an offensive foul in that scenario

Randle's head was vulnerable.

The whole point of rules like that is for player protection.

#1 Maric tweaked his movement and lowered his shoulder
#2 Maric's lowered shoulder collects Randle's head

Where's the "just standing there" part? Because that's definitely doing something.

And who actually thinks lowering your shoulder and in the process bumping someones head is not a foul?

Nothing.

Vulnerable in the air. Randle was neither of those things

why should Maric get punished for that?

Yes, Maric was recklessly...standing there.

I also have no idea how I missed you making the same comment. I'm going to blame the issues the site has been having.

Carry on.

Randle himself is responsible for 99% of the contact as he runs into the screen

Kobe, in your examples of worst calls this round you mention Kay is moving. The defender is allowed to move to maintain position,

I don't really know what you guys expect to be called?

We see the exact logic when a player contests a breakaway dunk where the contesting defender might knock the offensive player hard to the floor accidentally. Why? Because the player going for the dunk is vulnerable in the air

The next thing you look at is - regardless of intention -whether it was unnecessary and reckless and when you collect someone in the head that's what it becomes.

KET....Maric's ever so slight movement of his shoulder wasn't designed to hit Randle in the head. Randle himself is responsible for 99% of the contact as he runs into the screen
The only unsportsmanlike behavior was from whoever was guarding Maric and didn't call the screen and let his guy wear it

Ket airbourne player doesnt come into the equation for USF fouls. Heavy or severe contact or an unbasketball like act (ie not making a legitimate play at the ball).

Kobe, in your examples of worst calls this round you mention Kay is moving. The defender is allowed to move to maintain position, the need to be stationary went out years ago... the ncz part of that play is no doubt an error by the official.

But the worst call of all time is the Patty Mills flop induced foul on Wilson... which was followed up by a technical on Fearne :) I still giggle watching that one

I don't really know what you guys expect to be called?

To begin with, you can't lean in to bump with the shoulder, that's an offensive foul. At the very minimum.

The next thing you look at is - regardless of intention -whether it was unnecessary and reckless and when you collect someone in the head that's what it becomes. Yes Maric has a disadvantage in terms of height, but that puts more of an onus on him to ensure he doesn't collect players in the head when he's committing an offensive foul.

If you're going to commit the foul, make sure you don't risk injuring the player in the process. The action was the offensive foul which was quite clear, the consequence was Randle knocked on the head - when you place someone at risk like that you take the consequences of an unsportsmanlike.

We see the exact logic when a player contests a breakaway dunk where the contesting defender might knock the offensive player hard to the floor accidentally. Why? Because the player going for the dunk is vulnerable in the air on a breakaway and if you place them at risk it will justifiably be unsportsmanlike.

Wow, that unsportsmanlike foul call by Chris Reid is one of the worst calls I've seen in the NBL.

"Wow, that unsportsmanlike foul call by Chris Reid is one of the worst calls I've seen in the NBL. It was the slightest lean forward by Maric and Reid was only a couple of metres away."


Perfect example of an incompetent official calling the result of the action, not the action. So pretty much just another night in the NBL.
Josh Powell needs to work on his discipline, but I do see it's very hard for him with the way the refs call the game. He gets butt raped every time he goes in the paint and nothing gets called. He tries to look after himself a little and gets called for offensive fouls. Honestly some of the "defence" that gets played on him would result in a punch in the mouth in some leagues. But he's supposed to cop it and say "Thank you so much Mr Official" when they make their shit calls.
Too many sufferer's of "small man's syndrome" seem to become refs