Hoops

Have the Snakes been Screwed by the league?

+1 for the Bavarian. Disappointed my favourite beer in the world (pirate life double IPA) was off for two weeks when I went in earlier today.

People have bitched for years (decades?) that the Cats only survived because of the largess of Dr Jack, and previous owners...
But then are so quick to sink the boot into the Crocs and Snakes. So which is it? You can't have it both ways!
Either clubs must stand on their own two feet, in which case we would only have Cairns and (ironically now) Perth (maybe Hawks?) or do we allow rich owners to put money in?
In which case you can't really criticise the Crocs.
As for claiming the fans didn't come out to support them, that's misleading. They failed because unlike most of the other teams, they didn't have deep pockets to see them through the tough times.
As for LK, I'll admit that I have no idea exactly what he promised in exchange for being given the NBL as his personal toy. Prior to the deal supporters and apologists claimed his money was going to ensure the viability of the poorer teams, both via direct support and by providing free shared services. Personally, apart from a new website and streaming service, both of which I hate, I'm struggling to see what benefits he has bought to the league.

I also don't think any poorer team should be banking on luxury tax payments.

Yes, my preference is either going to the Bavarian beer house or Rattle & Hum for happy hour pre game drinks, then sober up during the game and be fine to drive home.

Unfortunately I'm going dry this january when I really could've used a drink or 9 tonight.

haha i could use a litre or 2...

Do you want some of this goon, Podge? Might need it after that one...

CT is that you sculling the bag of goon out the front before tip off??? save one for me next time!

Since I discovered the food and beverage sales go straight the convention centre these days frankly I just try and get nice and loaded before I get to the game rather than stump up $7 for a can of XXXX.

SEVEN. DOLLARS.

FOR XXXX.

Well if the LT is to be implemented the clubs would need some forward estimates by now to start their budgeting for next season.

Despite claims by some that part of LK's promise was to prop-up the poorer teams, we saw pretty quickly what his attitude was towards the Crocs.

I feel used......

No, mate. Sorry. It all goes back to the state government.

damnit Freethrows.... so my alcohol abuse hasn't been helping us spend the cap?

Cairns have had a rough run regarding scheduling for at least the last two seasons - very few home games in the opening rounds, and missing the NYE game this year being good examples. @Kingpodge's suggestion about the NYE game is that Taipans games garner a huge amount of revenue for the club (although not F&B, that belongs to the basket convention centre), and missing the game means a significant loss of revenue. The game played in Brisbane did not draw the same crowd, so it wasn't as much of a boon to the Bullets as it would have been for the Taipans.

This being said, I don't believe it's because LK is trying to screw the Taipans over. If they don't get a better draw for the start of next season,however, I will be very pissed off.

The luxury tax looks like it's going to be a huge farce. The league should already have its Independent Review Committee in place, and have advertised that fact. @Manu Fiedel, the reason for not using "actual" salaries is that they wanted to avoid clubs' sponsors paying players for playing basketball, and that amount not counting toward the cap. What they should have done is say that the "deemed" salary would not be lower than the salary paid by the clubs.

I don't think there's any point in clubs having to pay the tax through the year, but it needs to be stipulated when it will happen.

that's pretty damn good!

Dunno Podge, tix were a gift.

They're all decent seats in that place. $20 a pop for the cheap seats.

What's the price like Manu?

South Brisbane/Southbank is the place to be at NYE, and the Convention Centre is a block away from the main footbridge over the Brisbane River. As a Brisbane local, I'm there every NYE. They should've packed out the stadium.

Sounds like my kind of website! ;)

Cairns was screwed out of the NY year game, but I can understand the league wanting to try and push the Brisbane market this year. You'd hope Cairns gets it back though - it's terrific and works really well for that market. No, they don't own the night, but if it works why not let them have it?

Aside from that, not sure how exactly the league is "screwing" Cairns. They've been able to put together some very good rosters the past few years - and if it's taken deals with govt's etc to get players like Jawai over the line, so be it. Smart off-court dealings I'd have thought.

Rodger that KET. Who said Hoops.com.au wasn't educational.

violating an employees privacy is certainly unlawful, and in some cases totally illegal.

I'll see you on www.hoopsandlaw.com.au to continue this dicussion:)

Angus, that is a good point LK did make the point of expecting the current 8 clubs to survive under him. Although if something did happen to Cairns, I don't think he'd walk away from the NBL.

Kingpodge, a hoops forum probably isn't going to be too concerned by the specifics of law definitions - although I would be careful using the word 'illegal'. In a broad legal context, it's not defined. Mostly because the word 'unlawful' is used.

Lawyers don't use those words for civil law as it is usually applied to criminal law only. With civil matters it would be misleading and doesn't follow the nature and character of how civil law operates.

Criminal law is about prohibiting acts while civil law is about returning a person to the point before they suffered damage. There's not usually a punitive aspect to it as there's not really any "wrong behaviour" per se.

It's not uncommon for people to misuse the word though, they Liberal Government decided to call asylum seekers "illegals" and legislated them as "unlawful non-citizens" despite being an entirely lawful process of arrival and application under Australian law. There is certainly no criminal aspect to it, which is what made the legal fraternity quite puzzled!

But unless we know what is in the agreements, we can't really say what the NBL can and can't do. And IR law isn't the aspect of law I practice in so i've got nothing to add to that.

Re: LK and Cairns, I mentioned it in a thread I started here re: his appearance on the Aussie Hoopla podcast about 6 or so weeks ago, but LK was adamant that no team that is currently in the NBL today will not be in the NBL while the league is under his control. I take that to mean that the only way a team goes bust is if LK decides the entire venture is a fail and walks away from the NBL.

KET - depends on the scope of the breach it can be civil or criminal. But semantically, a civil or criminal law are both defined as 'illegal'.

Mind you it's been 10 years since my last law lecture..

Pop from what i recall it's all covered in the privacy act of 1988, as well as the 2009 Fair Work Act. Some states also have additional privacy requirements.

It's illegal to release most/all employment conditions/records, unless there is an agreement stating otherwise.

Cairns is also a tourism destination - and given the NBL is a summer league there is that market of attracting tourists to the games.

Dare I say, plenty from the Asian market - the people who are becoming very relevant to LK's plans for the NBL. In part, this may also be the reason for the Gold Coast/Chinese concept.

Not only is Cairns a competent regional business model, it's actually could be an important part of the NBL's strategy going into the future.

Well, the average Hoops poster isn't going to be familiar with the nuances of law - I think what kingpodge means is the NBL does not have the legal right to release information while it is confidential.

If the NBL tried to, it could face a contract/IR or fairwork dispute.

But indeed, it is not a criminal matter and therefore not "illegal".

Make that 5 big cities (not 4) - Syd, Mel, Ade, Bri, Per.

To the comments from people that think LK doesnt care about Cairns and would like to see them gone:

There is no way LK would want to lose Cairns. They are far too valuable to the league. Dont worry that they are a small regional team, they do their bit to ensure the league is a high standard - they draw near full houses to each home game, and they're profile in the Cairns community is very high. Plus they engage far better than other teams and seem to be well liked in the community.

They are far bigger and more prosperous than Townville were in the last few years. You cant compare the two franchises, they were so different.

Also remember that Australia only has 4 big market cities. We arent the US, so unless you have 8 teams out of Melbourne or Sydney, then you have to have regional teams - if just to fill out the number of teams to the current minimum of 8.

Even the bigger and fancier A-League and Big Bash have regional teams. I think Cairns are safe and would only fold on their own accord (like Townsville). Not because the league would rather a team from china and is doing their best to squeeze them out. ts a stretch.

Confidential is as confidential does, but illegal to disclose it? Really?

Embarrassing, maybe. Unethical, maybe, but illegal? On what legal ground? Might be a civil case if one of the parties to the salary arrangements was found to have disclosed the detail but I struggle to come to terms with 'illegal' in this context.

However, I'm open to being educated.

Jawai aint close to $250k, and you'd be surprised at what the state gov is... or isn't providing.

And just a reminder that until the league/PA work out a transparency deal, salary info is still confidential and it's illegal to disclose it.

"haha is that a made up figure twinkletoes? The whole package is far more than that"

I'm well aware of that, which is why put in the + .

well done to BNE for selling out their 4000 seat venue.

haha is that a made up figure twinkletoes? The whole package is far more than that

kingpodge.....yes they did, A portion was paid toward his role in the indigenous community but the taipans still had to pay a significant amount towards his salary as the cats made a bigger offer than the taipans had the ability to match.

Brisbane still sold out their NYE game

Why does NBL allow MEL to host games at the netball centre? We all know it's because of the tennis, but IMO that's not a good enough excuse. Doesn't MEL have another venue that can host at least 5000? What's the point of the NBL supporting the big city teams if they can only host 3500 people. Yet on the other had they're happy to take away a game from CNS which sells out the 5500 seat stadium?

My understanding was they gave the regional teams the NYE games because at the big cities people were more interested in attending NYE celebrations somewhere. But the two-faced approach of giving ILL their NYE game and taking it away from CNS does lean into the 'getting screwed' category, or at least 'showing favouritism to others' category.

Re. the luxury tax, my contact has said that it is sorted out at the end of the season and the money made available to spend next season. We'll wait and see how they pans out though, I'm sure the NBL will have a way of forgetting about it, especially if SYD, MEL or BNE don't win.

Jawai has been employed by the Qld state govt. to be an ambassador for the Taipans Indigineous Program with the idea being there may be future work for him in this area when his playing career comes to an end. I understand that overall (Taipans plus state govt) he is getting $250K+ .

Re Nathans contract l know his original starting price was 250K as Beecroft and Fearne were running around to major sponsors Cairns council and the Kenfrost group looking for dollars. lm unsure what final dollar figure he ended up at

well said Dazz.

Taipans have had a great Dec-2016 draw it's there fault that they have blown it losing to Adelaide/United/Sydney at home.

But anyway, even if the NBL does want to screw the Taipans and boot this regional team does it really matter? The NBL is a business for LK who wants to make a profit and if he has no interest in regional teams, then so be it, he's the owner. Talk the NBL would like a Nth QLD side(the name would be called Nth QLD) and Townsville and Cairns would share home games most played in Townsville but under the banner "Nth QLD" like the Cowboys NRL side. The word Nth QLD is more expansive to a wider audience. Like NZ Breakers they say not Auckland Breakers.

But yep if LK really wants a Chinese side instead of the Taipans I say does it really matter? LK wants to make money and a profit, he's the owner he has every right to screw teams over if he doesn't want them in his league as the owner. He won't screw the Kings over etc, as they are a big city team.

The Hawks are now basically a 2nd sydney team(Gong is almost past tot sydney now and will be seen as totally a part of sydney in reality by 2030)

Regional teams mostly only head to the cemetery in the NBL, the the Cairns Taipans simply might join them soon in the "NBL Cemetery".

All the excuses being made about calculating the tax, basically assume we're stuck in the 1950's with an abacus, and completely ignore the whole point of the system.

I FMD, if I look hard enough, there's probably "an App for that." Any boob with a spreadsheet could calculate the tax on a daily/ weekly/ monthly basis.
And an end-of-season reconciliation would take 5 minutes. Saying we can't calculate the tax until after the season is basically over is a monumental, asinine, cop-out.

Even if the league only counted on, and required the clubs to pay, say 75% on a monthly basis, that would be something.

And as I said, all these objections overlook the fundamental stated aim of the system.
It was SUPPOSED to make the league fairer. How is it fair if Sydney are out-spending Cairns 2:1, and nothing is being done to even it out? How are they supposed to compete when they're not getting the money promised, and in fact have no guarantee they ever will?

As for all the retard trying to blame Cairns, what a joke. Cairns are arguable the mostly financially responsible team in the league. Take away the huge buckets of cash Sydney and MU are getting from their owners, then come back and talk.

Lastly, there is a HUGE inherent danger in all this, and given the history of the NBL and its teams, its entirely probable.
Remember the fiasco in 95?
The Giants massively breeched the cap, got handed a record fine by the NBL, then plead poverty because they had no money left?

What happens in a few years time, when Sydney receive their annual retrospective tax bill, and then can't pay because their American owner has got sick of tipping money in?

That said, I hope the NBL will open a restaurant or pub in Perth. You eat and drink all you want, and they don't even send you a bill for 6 months.

haha Very Old, you are also very wise. Well said.

there's a reason my some people post as Anonymous rather than under an identifiable tag ( even if they run more than 1

its because they know thier points are mostly trolling, and they don't want their next set of trolling posts to be identified with the last lot of trolling posts , and thus simply be ignored.

sad really.

like walking around with a bag over your head , not because you are a dangerous dude about to do a hold up - but because you just don't want people recognising you and laughing .., works well do you think ?

*sigh* sure Anon.

Anyone care to confirm whether Jawai's entire contract is paid by the club? I've rumours otherwise.

"No Dazz, the taipans messed up by spending too much on Jawai, who is even less effective than he was for the cats last season"

- except, and here's the kicker, they didn't..........

Anonymous.... i guess i'm going to have to spell it out.

Losing the NYE game DOES affect the bottom line because 1) it's an event that does sell out for more easily than other nights, because of the occasion. You can't just miraculously conjure an event that brings thousands of people into the CBD. You lose that gate revenue along with F&B revenue. It matters that Brisbane had poor attendance because it was basically guaranteed revenue for the Taipans - every cent matters to a regional team FYI..

The Anzac day clash is so culturally significant that it's only been running since 95'....... and yes they do a great job commemorating ANZAC day, but it was also an opportunity to take advantage of the extra crowds who were in the city. It didn't hurt that Ruxton was a Pie's supporter either. The AFL aren't playing it as a good will event, even if that is the facade they paint, they are doing it because it also makes them a shit load of money.

No Dazz, the taipans messed up by spending too much on Jawai, who is even less effective than he was for the cats last season

I get the feeling a few teams will be screwed by the NBL with the tax on salaries exceeding the soft cap. This 'independent contract review committee' will surely determine a contract's value by individual/team performance over the course of the season. So Sydney -- which has spent a bucket load on players -- won't be hit as hard because they've underperformed.

Can anyone shed any light on why the NBL chose or would choose this 'review committee' route, rather than basing it on actual contract values (which actually seems fair)?

That's not a fair way to distinguish ANZAC Day for Essendon collingwood and NYE for cairns. They're both big events to each club.

Adelaideans would understand this with the way we like to rally around our nye strikers match and cricket daynighter. We like to own it, make it our own little spot. It's iconic.

It's also what Melbourne does with boxing day, they're iconic for it with United open air game and the MCG cricket.

It's a nice thing which means a lot and is usually successful.