Hoops

Is This The Best Wildcats Core/Era Ever?

Having thought about it, no. 90s team way better.

"Yes it would count if the Hawks had a full squad. Perhaps another * is in order."

Maybe four *'s are needed, as in you are speaking a load of ****

Yes it would count if the Hawks had a full squad. Perhaps another * is in order.

Having thought about it, if Perth beats the Hawks in the GF this era will unquestionably be the Wildcats' greatest. That would make six GFs and four titles in eight years. That's remarkable.

Hv a look at some of the Wildats players who have been on court for the wildcats in recent championships hahahaha! Comical!

please take note the original poster of this topic has stated that Kobe was better than Jordan.

I know anon #889, it's so disrespectful. But the kids these days don't understand. Let's put some context out there - please take note the original poster of this topic has stated that Kobe was better than Jordan. Yes, you heard me.

HAHA this is Hilarious.

The best post ive read for a long long time!

Do not insult the likes of Crawford,Grace,Fisher and Valhov by comparing them to today's team.

Would not even be close.

No ones in todays team is as good as any of them.

Vlahov would put Prather through a wall the first time he tried his euro step and he woulnt go in the keyway again.

Hv a look at some of the Wildats players who have been on court for the wildcats in recent championships hahahaha! Comical!

I think the earlier core is better. BUT that is because that core was generally the teams top 4 players.

And another thread gone off the rails

^^ Bravo. The good old days have been replaced by a much diluted product with pussies as players.

Trust me no one wanted the Doomsday Double. That's long gone and very unfortunate that is. The kids running around in Perth uniforms are kids, no balls, mostly with minimal talent and pussies.
Vlahov, Fischer, Crawford, and the list goes on.
Perth had the WALL. The wildcats today have a fence and no DEFENCE.
Undoubtedly talented and the money that they have to put that side and those previous sides has always been above any cap. None of which are enforceable.
No comparison at all. Different game, different era and again no comparison.
Plyers are retiring because they are old and the game has left them behind. No big men banging, the refs are incapable generally and yet crowds love it. Dumb arse calls, now the flopping rule. Talent is sensational but the hard bangers are long gone. Jawai is a typical example. Pussy.
Paul having a few locals and 3 imports makes a better game? Piss off please. Add naturilsed players in there too. Even worse. Redhage retire. Jawai retire please. Wortho hard nosed but becoming even more thuggish if that's possible.
Martin should retire. Knight too. No comparison sorry. /endrant
+ Bring back the Doomsday Double. MOst of the kids here wouldn
t know. Perth / Adelaide in 2 days. Frid / Sat, Or Sat Sund. Either direction. Less leams, less games = more rest time. That's been forgotten too. Fewer games.

Did you just realise that when looking up the stats? lol

I think another way to look at this might be to consider the ultimate record of the players?

Grace - 482 games
Crawford - 371 (504)
Fisher - 247 (417)
Vlahov - 349
Torrance - 253 (305)

That pretty impressive. Only Redhage is in the same company, with Martin closing in

No, I would put him as a role player.

Are you not counting Wagstaff as a major player?

That's a good distinction FTSOS. Interestingly, Grace was the only Cat to be a major player in four championships, something Martin will match if they win this year.

Current Wildcats in each championship:

2010 - 3
2014 - 5
2016 - 7

1995 Wildcats in each championship/GF:

1987 - 1
1990 - 3
1991 - 4

Interestingly, the current group has kept more of a core together.

I think the earlier core is better. BUT that is because that core was generally the teams top 4 players. There was also not a huge gap between any of those 4.

The later years core was arguably at worst only 2 of the top 4 players in the team and maybe 3 before age caught up with Redhage. The gap between them and Ennis, Prather and Cotton(possibly as well) was also larger.

I think to compare you need to look at Grace/Fisher/Crawford/Vlahov Vs the Martin/Redhage/Knight/Ennis or Martin/Knight/Prather/Cotton for example.......but then that's not a core over time is it...

"The top 4/5 teams in the 1990s usually contained a Boomer or ex-Boomer or two (major tournament standard, not Oceania champs), one or two naturalised imports and a couple of star imports."

Cairns - Jawai, Wortho + three imports
Perth - Martin, Redhage + three imports
NZ - Penney, Abercrombie, Vukona etc + three imports
Melbourne - Goulding, Andersen + three imports
Brisbane - Bairstow, Gibson + two imports
Sydney - Newley, Lisch, Maric + two/three imports

The talent today in pretty much every team is as good as the best teams in the early 90s (or any other period), plus the benches are deeper, the sports science, training, scouting, strategy and defence advanced by two decades.

If you were to compare the late 90s, early 2000s to today for standard I would agree, but the Australian talent before that period was very shallow due to extremely low participation levels.

"I think the coaching and training are better now and in-game tactics are better, and better executed as a consequence. But that's not the question."

Spot on. The 80s/90s team could only play in the league they were in at the time.

It's an interesting side discussion though. In sports that are timed (aths, swimming etc) everyone knows the standard improves over time.

Team sports are exactly the same, as those involved over long periods like D-Mac and Joey Wright know, but there isn't the definitive proof like a 100m time so it leaves it open to disussion, which is much more interesting really!

Bradwell was that type of player you can't discount his shots. He took low percentage shots and he made them sometimes. It's not like they were total flukes like if it was Nate Jawai splashing contested long range jumpers

From 1990-2000, nine different clubs played in grand finals and five different clubs won championships. Pick any seven consecutive years in that period and at least four different clubs won championships.

In the 2010-2016 period, five clubs have played in championships and two clubs have won championships.

Regardless of the relative standards of the NBL between the two eras, winning championships was harder in the 1990s. Part of the reason is that winning championships is about beating the the top few teams, not the scrubs that all the top teams beat - then and now.

In the 2010-2016 era there's been a consistent gap between the top 5/6 teams and the rest. Every season bar this one has seen the top four as a race in 5 or 6, just like it was in the 1990s.

The top 4/5 teams in the 1990s usually contained a Boomer or ex-Boomer or two (major tournament standard, not Oceania champs), one or two naturalised imports and a couple of star imports. While the standard at the bottom of the NBL is higher now than then, I don't think the standard at the top level of NBL is higher now than then. I think the coaching and training are better now and in-game tactics are better, and better executed as a consequence. But that's not the question.

Given all of that, I'd take the 1990s Perth core over the 2010-2016 core.

"We came within two Braswell fluke shots"

Come on I'm a Cats fan but they won. We didn't.

*and this season's grand final

We came within two Braswell fluke shots of sweeping the 2011 Breakers team even without Redhage, and were better than the 2013 team throughout the regular season.

Regardless, even without those the 2010-2020 team has two more grand final appearances and two fewer championships than the 1990-2000 team, with three seasons still to go.

The core played a bigger role back then. It really isn't a discussion in those terms.

Era yes, this is a good discussion but if we win the title this year then you tick the back to back box and also sheer volume of rings.

Let's not count our chickens yet though, Id still have us as slight underdogs to Adelaide, particularly given home court

The 2011 & 2013 qualifer is also disrespectful to the great threepeat Breakers side.

Because no one ever got injured back then either, or had to play at not 100%. hahah good one. The 2011 & 2013 qualifer "oh we wuz injured!!11" that is abused on here can be used by any other team losing in a GF. The end result is the end result, deal with it.

That's not comparable.

What if Vlahov's shot goes in at the end of '93 game 3! What ifffffffffffff?

Can you name any?

"Had Redhage and Martin not gone down in 2011 & 2013"

Yeah and how about all those "what ifs" in the 90s that could have led to more titles for us?

Best thing Perth did was to let Bevo Go, and get Gleeson to coach going for his 3 championship.

Grace Fisher Vlahov Crawford and co. coached by Dpc Hurley were the greatest. More depth and teams to gp through back then as well.

Hey Kobe, don't forget the 1993 Grand Final as well. Try as I might, I am unable to.

What's impressive about the early era is it really went from 87-03, with 11 SF appearances, two lost GFs and four titles, and they stayed up the top through the league going way up in standard from the late 90s.

the league in the 90's was more competitive in my opinion

The difference is that back then, our stable core were also our best players.
In the recent grand final era most of our top players have been imports, so it's not really comparing apples with apples.

Once Grace and Fisher naturalised, their imports were role players.

Yep the 90s can't be beat. 2000 championship was 1999-2000 season. Four in ONE decade.

rounding down obviously

Its 11 years.

Yep the 90s can't be beat. 2000 championship was 1999-2000 season. Four in ONE decade.

"Fisher/Vlahov/Grace/Crawford: two grand finals in seven years for one title."
I feel that's a little misleading.
From 1990 to 2000, the Wildcats won 4 championships
Grace 4
Vlahov & Crawford 3
Fisher 2

The difference I feel was that in those days the power did come from the core. Once Grace and Fisher naturalised, their imports were role players.

In the modern era, none of the imports have stuck around, except for Redhage, who has only been a role player in the last couple of seasons.

* Loggins should be in that 93 list, he was an Aussie by then.

Out of interest, 1993 was a 14-team comp, and the top 28 local scorers or average two per team were:

Gaze
Ronaldson
Vlahov
Ninnis
Withers
Heal
Hubbard
Bradkte
Reidy
Borner
Johnson
Svaldenis
Reece
Lucas
McKay
Goodwin
Close
Hill
Parkinson
Pearce
Blades
Corkeron
Stewart
Smyth
Keogh
Armfield
Cottrell
Steele

This year in an eight-team comp the top 16 local scorers or average two per team were:

Newley
Penney
Goulding
Lisch
Johnson
Sobey
Cadee
Bairstow
Kickert
Creek
Abercrombie
Webster
Ogilvy
Gliddon
Andersen
Jawai

The best Aussies played NBL back then. Now they are all in NBA or Europe.

The difference is that back then, our stable core were also our best players.
In the recent grand final era most of our top players have been imports, so it's not really comparing apples with apples.

"The Grace/Fisher/Vlahov/Crawford era was undoubtedly better"

After the above group it's daylight.

(Just putting the mozz on them)

Absolutely, 100% the best

So good they're near certainties for the title. It's Perth then daylight. Unbeatable!

The flat-out talent level across the teams is far higher now than in 1993 when the NBL was emerging from a semi-pro league. Have a chat to Joey Wright about how much the standard has improved since when he played.

That can't be factored into the comparison though, the Wildcats of each era could only play against whatever oppo was put in front of them.

IMO, the NBL didn't become a high-quality league across the board until the mid-late 90s when the number of teams dropped and players from the participation boom started to reach adult age.

The Grace/Fisher/Vlahov/Crawford era was undoubtedly better

More teams an more talent back then too

Close in relative quality to each other. Not overall quality vs. say a 1993 season.

"Because the competition was tougher."

This was one of, if not the, the toughest and closest season in history

Because the competition was tougher.

The players were certainly better in the early to mid-90s but this team is gunning for its fourth title from six appearances in eight seasons. The 90's team didn't come close to that.

I think people who think this is the best Cats team may be too young to remember back far enough. Just like the kids of today think Kobe was better than Jordan.