Hoops

Terrance Ferguson picked 21st by OKC

Ok that makes sense.

"Paul with all due respect, that is anodd way of representing the placings at the end of the season. Perth #1 and Illawarra #2 I can understand. Why is Adelaide 3rd and not Cairns?"

Adelaide finished above Cairns in the regular season and they both dropped out at the same stage of the playoffs. Therefore to me Adelaide stays above Cairns.

^ lmao

Edwin left for personal reasons, he wasn't sacked.

Someone asked how paul got his rankings. So we are guessing why re: his funky numbers. That's all.

Koberulz, don't get to involved, the things your jumping on, are definite side issues to the main thread. Adelaide should've made a better decision with its import candidates not named Jerome Randle.

You are correct imo about the seedings argument, the Edwin thing, all i can say was he was ordinary, and although it didnt work out, Mitchel showed me glimpses that made me think in a full season he had beast mode qualities.

He saw a gap in his team and sought to remedy that gap. Given the lateness of Fuquan's axing

The completely ridiculous claim that ladder positions don't match playoff seedings.

"What on earth are you talking about?"

What on earth are you what-on-earthing about?

"As a 36er Fan, I get why they signed Ferguson as they need as much publicity as they can get (and it seemed to work) but, ultimately, the sacrifice was a more experienced impact player who would have helped us come the Finals series against Illawarra"

Correct....to back that up TF played 5 and 7 mins respectively in the last 2 SF games against the Hawks. And when Drmic got tossed out in Game 3 those minutes just went to Creek.

Joey probably lost confidence in TF by that time, so it was not a good use of an all important import slot.

"I got the impression from the games I watched that Mitchell was ultimately a hindrance for Cairns. Seemed like the difficult sort that teams don't want when they gamble on someone new to the league."

I am making a guess here but I think Fearne saw Fuquan more and more shy away from being aggressive, which resulted in Fearne giving less minutes and the cycle just kept getting worse with no turnaround in sight.

He saw a gap in his team and sought to remedy that gap. Given the lateness of Fuquan's axing Mitchell may have been an option within limited choices, I don't know. But at least we can say he tried, even after the wash up, w can say Fearne tried something different for a hopefully different outcome.

I have recognised Mitchell's shortcomings but from the stats I can also see he was more effective than Fuquan with his time on the court. Furthermore since that change of personnel, Cairns went 5-3 (with one of those losses thanks to the last second call on Gliddon contesting Cotton's shot).

In a season where 2nd to 4th all had 15-13 records, that was critical to them getting to second place.

Overall, if I were a Taipans fan given the benefit of hindsight I would still back Fearne's move to swap out Fuquan. Even though it didn't eventuate in a ring still you know the coach is constantly heading in the RIGHT direction which is all you can ask for.

There is a difference between final ladder position and playoff seeding, although NBL nowadays will tweak the ladder after the final round to match the seeds in order.

The crowds came and the publicity was around because the team was winning amd Randle was electric. TF story was an interest point early on, but once the real games started, and the dunk comp was done with, TF offered little to nothing in terms of the publicity side of things. Did he lead jersey sales? Did he have people talking like Farley or Hodge did at their peak? No. Hindsight was creeping up on the 36ers as the season was progressing. He shouldve have been cut, an replaced with an adequate import who would jave contributed. Its a business remember. It worries me that the coach wjo os now around for another 5 years didnt have the balls/mindset to make that required move of winning was the actual goal.

As a 36er Fan, I get why they signed Ferguson as they need as much publicity as they can get (and it seemed to work) but, ultimately, the sacrifice was a more experienced impact player who would have helped us come the Finals series against Illawarra

There is a difference between final ladder position and playoff seeding, although NBL nowadays will tweak the ladder after the final round to match the seeds in order. Probably what paul was using?

I got the impression from the games I watched that Mitchell was ultimately a hindrance for Cairns. Seemed like the difficult sort that teams don't want when they gamble on someone new to the league.

Paul with all due respect, that is anodd way of representing the placings at the end of the season. Perth #1 and Illawarra #2 I can understand. Why is Adelaide 3rd and not Cairns?

How do you pronounce Fuquan?

"Sorry for the confusion LoveBroker, I was going on ladder position at the end of the season, not before the playoffs, so I'm talking about Perth 1st, Illawarra 2nd and Adelaide 3rd."

Paul with all due respect, that is anodd way of representing the placings at the end of the season. Perth #1 and Illawarra #2 I can understand. Why is Adelaide 3rd and not Cairns?

"Mitchell at Cairns is a great example, how did he work out in the playoffs? He was more of a hindrance than a help."

Was he? He was hot-headed and prone to fouling yes, but lets look at the stats.

Fuquan was 8ppg @ 40% in 20 mpg.
In the 2 playoff games Mitchell played, he was 10.5ppg @ 40.1% in 15 mpg. Now the minutes is probably a function of the fouls but when on the court he was more effective than Fuquan.

The Cairns Taipans saw Fuquan's unwillingness to be agrressive and took a gamble on Mitchell. Just because Cairns got swept does not mean it was a bad move, they got swept because of several factors, namely how bad Jawai, Gliddon, McCarron and Wortho played.

In fact I think @ 10.5ppg, Mitchell was their 2nd highest scorer after Trice.

"The two teams with the best consistency throughout the season finished 2nd and 3rd despite being relatively low budgets. "

I'm all for consistency but I just don't see that those two teams were where they ended up because solely of consistency. They played well and believed they were comfortable with their line up went with it.

On the flip side, if Perth had kept with Jaron Johnson, it is likely consistency would have seen their 30 year streak end. Perth went with consistency 2 seasons ago and persisted with DeAndre Daniels, and they went within 1 game of missing the playoffs only to be swept by Wilbekin's Taipans.

Last season the Sixers stuck with Ebi, and missed the playoffs.

"Consistency of roster has been a key to success in the NBL for some time, and it seemed to work for Adelaide and Illawarra last season."

I wouldn't say its absolutely key, but it certainly lends to success.

"I don't think anyone is arguing that the Ferguson signing has 'paid off' for the Sixers. "

May I present exhibit#1 from FM....

"Don't for 1 minute credit Sobeys improvement or improvement across the entire team linked to TF at all. Especially with those scouts coming to watch games, that didn't motivate or improve the group at all.

Did the hype with TF also help in attracting a new buyer."

Sorry for the confusion LoveBroker, I was going on ladder position at the end of the season, not before the playoffs, so I'm talking about Perth 1st, Illawarra 2nd and Adelaide 3rd.

Mitchell at Cairns is a great example, how did he work out in the playoffs? He was more of a hindrance than a help. The two teams with the best consistency throughout the season finished 2nd and 3rd despite being relatively low budgets.

Consistency of roster has been a key to success in the NBL for some time, and it seemed to work for Adelaide and Illawarra last season.

Some have said the benefits are big, id like to know what benefits?

As for the arguement, im personally on the side of it being an obvious risk, and not a risk worth having taken. I dont have anywhere near the love for the 36ers thesedays, just too many bad signings and poor performances. But man i love the NBL and couldve seen an 18yr old out of high school signed up as an import was stupid from the get go, no matter how much they hyped his pre game dunks and threw the NBA link in as much as possible. Now Randle is gone, Sobey and perhaps Creek will be moving on but we get to keep Joey medicore Wright for 5 more years. 5.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Ferguson signing has 'paid off' for the Sixers.

Essentially, there are those in this thread saying "well it was a gamble, didn't really pay off, but kudos for trying, maybe there are some benefits in additional exposure received".

And others who are dismissing those statements as though they are insanity by saying that "well it was an obvious risk, why the hell would you take it, there is nothing tangible to show for it".

There is not even any real disagreement here. If you are on one side of the discussion, dismissing the other out of hand is a bit OTT.

LoveBroker has hit it on the head. What is done it done, but what benefit moving forward is there for the 36ers! Seems nothing, yet its been the the biggest rebut to the 'perceived hate' at not liking the TF signing. Im just curious what the 36ers will get out of this... because if its not $ and surely it wont be the idea of another high schooler taking on import spot, id be leaving that option to another NBL team to struggle with.

Guess Joey got his foot in the door with an NBA team, potentially because of it, so thats something..... for him.

"And one of the other teams in the play-offs, who made a change, got a guy who played under 16 MPG, as Ferguson did."

Tony Mitchell scored almost double TF, at a better clip, and better stats across the board (except TOs) with the same amount of minutes. Also noteworthy is Mitchell only has 8 regular season games to familiarise himself with the team, TF had 27.

" In hindsight, I'm sure they could've done more with that position, but half the league probably felt the same way with their signings."

Like I said before I am open to an existance of a long term benefit in keeping TF, but I am yet to see something tangible.

"The two teams that didn't make a change last season came 2nd and 3rd, yet you're saying not making a change was a bad thing?"

Cairns came 2nd on the ladder, they replaced Fuquan Edwin for Tony Mitchell.

Perth finished 3rd. We all know who replaced who there.

Why do you think they did not make changes?

My statement did not suggest making a change will automatically lead to success if that is how you are reading it.

"That doesn't make sense to me, the evidence suggests making changes wasn't really that successful for most teams that did it."

Are you suggesting then that because 6 the of 8 teams that made changes to their roster and only 2 of those made the playoffs, one should never risk any changes?

Someone above mentioned it, but I doubt it. So asked if anyone would elaborate? Steve2K?

"WTF? Obviously would have an NBA out clause if that were the case. Go away!"

That's exactly my point. Why do people then think the Sixers can get paid by Philly?

And one of the other teams in the play-offs, who made a change, got a guy who played under 16 MPG, as Ferguson did.

At the beginning of the 36ers season, Ferguson might've made sense on a budget and once they were winning, it probably didn't make sense to rock the boat. In hindsight, I'm sure they could've done more with that position, but half the league probably felt the same way with their signings.

I felt like Harris was an issue for Illawarra, but he seemed excellent early on, and then by the time they might've considered replacing him, the team were winning. Similar situation to Adelaide and similar result in the end.

"With the exception of Beal all saw a shortcoming in their roster and sought to remedy that shortcoming."

The two teams that didn't make a change last season came 2nd and 3rd, yet you're saying not making a change was a bad thing?

That doesn't make sense to me, the evidence suggests making changes wasn't really that successful for most teams that did it.

I dont think he would have had one. At 18 wouldve always been waiting for the draft not a 10 day contract. Was a horrible decsion by the 36ers to bring him in from a winning the title point of view. Was an amazing effort for the 6ers to get as far as they did on 1 1/2 imports, but shouldve converterd the title if they had the proper mindset.

"Why would you jeopardise that with even the slightest chance that the Sixers could not release you from your contract for a payment?"

WTF? Obviously would have an NBA out clause if that were the case. Go away!

Also I don't buy into the whole Sixers put together a second rate squad not expecting to win theory.

What is the benefit?

There is no draft so tanking for first pick is out.

To save money for a big push next year? You are required to spend $900k of the $1m cap.

Any team should be constantly assessing their players.

Melbourne made 2 changes Jackson & Williams for Ware and Boone.

Cairns got rid of Fuquan, Brisbane Dolla Beal.

Perth Johnson ---> Ingram which became Cotton.

Even Sydney make an attempt with Bryson ---> Blake ---> Jackson.

With the exception of Beal all saw a shortcoming in their roster and sought to remedy that shortcoming.

Is it that much to ask that the Sixers person the same assessment and take the necessary action?

To those thinking the Sixers are going to get paid by Philly, put yourself in TF's position.

You are projected first round, you will get a guaranteed contract that this 1.5x an entire NBL team's salary cap, which increases in year 2.

Why would you jeopardise that with even the slightest chance that the Sixers could not release you from your contract for a payment?

I dont think the 36ers got anything out of it financially. Just some perceived attention which has resulted in nothing. A silent back was to get a kick back if he went first round I believe. Its a win for the player, as far as experience up front $, perhaps the backer, but not for the 36ers or the fan base. Pre game dunks dont excite me as much as in game production. Thing is, at 18 he was never going to be good enough at this level. Shame to think the 36ers felt so poorly about there roster they figure they had nothing to lose in going down this path.

Did they promise not to cut TF because if he got drafted Sixers get $$$? How long was his deal for? If they get no $ then that is a fail.

Randle was to blame, as much as Wright was to blame for running out of tactical ideas to mix things up against the Hawks. Where does it disecting finish! Reality is, Adelaide felt they werent going to be great, took a risk thinking they had nothing to lose in signing a 'not ready yet' player. As the team got rolling, it was exposed that they were vulnerable with depth, but theyd made a promise not to cut TF no matter how poor he was, and he was, because this league is legit. By the end of it was an amazing opportunity to win a title gone begging. If they had just had the confidence from the get go with the roster, they wouldve gone all in and signed a decent second import. Jacobsen was the cheap SEABL style cheap import, but realistically Adelaide had 2, and still did THAT well. Just imagine if you cut TF for a 'ready to go NOW' import.

Not denying that. But Randle is to blame, they were so good all season with an ineffective third import until the veteran import's massive brain fade.

And besides that as a stupid angle of argument, fact is they didnt win game 2, nor game 3, and the lack of support from players such as TF was evident. Fact is they gave an import spot to a kid, and eventually not acting like a business destroyed the 36ers.

Sure it does, Ferguson was trash all season because he was out of his depth. It had been discussed the entire season amongst alot of people who are educated on the game. It was a horrible risk to start with, it was just shadowed the majority of the season due to Randle and Sobey being so damn good.

But if they win Game 2 there is no need for a Game 3, and none of the discussion above happens.

Yes it cost the 36ers game 2. No excuses in game 3.

Randle going hero ball hog in Game 2 cost the Sixers. One of the worst stretches of play and selfishness in NBL history.

You are all over the place with whatever this defence of a trash nbl import. So ill kust say, thankgod its over and done with. Cant help but think what wouldve been with a decent import combo, considering how well they did to lead 1-0 in a semi series with home court advantage, but so be it. The powers that be have to live with that.

One thing you are undeniably wrong about FM is to assume most people thought they'd all off during the playoffs, leading a series 1-0. They choked and when Drimic hot ejected in game 3 it really became evident we were an import who cpuld play a role down. Thats fact.

"Did TF contribute towards the minor premiership? Yes. Did he make a significant impact? Not with 4.63ppg @ 38%."

You can't argue based on points per game then think comparing it to Ingles is terrible. I don't rate players on one attribute. You have to compare the whole package. I agree there are plenty of $70k imports out there who could have replaced TF, however none of them are going to give you anything any better in the NBL. There is a reason cheap imports are cheap.

Can TF flat out shoot? OKC think so and so did the Sixers when the kid landed in Adelaide from first training sessions. We never really sore a pure shooter in his games however ability versus experience is something you have to wait to develop.

Not many thought they would last through the finals series. We might have wanted them too, but too young was always a risk the wheels would fall off.

Sorry to put it in there but Eli actually held his own during the finals series. It was the rest of the season that he stank.

FM just stop, your arguementive points are terrible. The Ingles thing to start was super special haha

"Maybe the Jazz should cut Ingles with only 6.5 points @30mpg."

Comparing Ingles' value to the Jazz with TF's value to the Sixers is a very poor start to a counter argument.

Please try again.

"Don't for 1 minute credit Sobeys improvement or improvement across the entire team linked to TF at all."

So Sobey and the team became 'extra driven' because TF was on the team? Perhaps we need to update TF's CV to include consummate Glue Guy.

Seriously, suggesting a team of adult players looking up to and be inspired by an import that provides 4ppg @ 38% is lunacy.

"Especially with those scouts coming to watch games, that didn't motivate or improve the group at all."

So players only play well when there are scouts coming to watch someone else? Why didn't you tell the Sixers management? All this time they could have just hired some NBA scouts to rev up the boys.

So how come the boys were so 'rev'd up' the whole season only to go MIA in Game 3 at home against the 4th place team missing AJ Ogilvy?

"Did the hype with TF also help in attracting a new buyer."

I see, an astute businessman will go and buy a team because of an import who will leave at the end of that season.

"Our coach tried something outside of the box and going from expected last to first place, I can't see how anybody can be against the investment in TF."

OK now we're back to 'we were first place because of TF'.

I am not against the investment in TF. I am however against making sweeping statements aligning a teams success on one individual with a stat line like Terrence Ferguson's.

As with any investment, its a gamble. As with any gamble, you go in and at the end assess how well it went.

Lets assess the short term. The Sixers won the minor premiership, were favourites to take out the championship, didn't make it past the SF.

Now it would be as wrong for me to blame TF for the loss as it is for you to suggest we won the minor prem because of TF. However, if you look at the eventual champions, all their imports had significant contributions throughout the playoffs.

Therefore I would suggest a team that wants to go all the way needs all their imports to contribute significantly. This was missing with the Sixers. Even Marvelle Harris who was more quiet in the latter half of the season stepped it up for the Hawks in Game 3.

Now the long term, I am open to the TF investment having long term benefits. In fact I am hopeful, but I don't see any.

If you tell me that the fans were drawn to the games which will lead to more memberships next year, thats speculative. And if more fans attended more games last year it was because we were winning and winning with an exciting brand of basketball thanks to Sobey and Randle under Joey's system.

If you tell me this will lead to more NBA prospects coming to the Sixers to develop, that's speculative.

I WANT to believe the TF experiment was a fruitful exercise, but with the evidence before me I can't make that call.

Maybe the Jazz should cut Ingles with only 6.5 points @30mpg.

Putting a team on the floor takes more than just one players results on game day. How a player approaches the game off the court and in the gym also helps build the team. Remember all the reasons Ingles was picked up by the Jazz?

Don't for 1 minute credit Sobeys improvement or improvement across the entire team linked to TF at all. Especially with those scouts coming to watch games, that didn't motivate or improve the group at all.

Did the hype with TF also help in attracting a new buyer.

You quote the fans, Sixers fans wanted a decent team but we didn't have the cash flow that was getting splashed around the league. Our coach tried something outside of the box and going from expected last to first place, I can't see how anybody can be against the investment in TF.

Lovebroker, hit it on the head. I didnt have the time or patience to rebut all those stupid points from FM... but glad you did. Dellusional stuff. Point is adelaide didnt get a good return for an import who avg 4ppg. If this hadnt been a project situation, TF wouldve and shouldve been cut for an import that produced.

"1. We got to first place and won the minor premiership."

I'm not sure what the point of this statement is. You can also apply this statement to Sam Johns and Adam Doyle too.

Did TF contribute towards the minor premiership? Yes. Did he make a significant impact? Not with 4.63ppg @ 38%.

Kevin White scored 4.74ppg @ 44% in LESS minutes.

"2. Our coach showed we work as a team, we don't ditch a player from the group in order to get someone else in."

So? How does 'not ditching' a player become a success factor in a year where the Sixers lost in the semi finals to the 4th placed team at home?

"3. We showed faith in the team whilst others in the competition sacked players."

I have no issue with showing faith and letting a Joey's plan time to evolve. But blindly keeping with the same thing and hoping the different results is foolhardy. Eg Ebi Ere.

"4. If you are signed by the Sixers (especially as an import), as long as you embrace the team, your contract and job security is safe."

Are you suggesting that as long as you are a good club man, you should have a contract regardless of your contribution on the court?

"Perth might have won the finals series but they cut and replaced all season, that win didn't get a single player into the NBA. Hell they have never had Perth wildcats called out in the biggest draft in the game EVER despite their 30+ years of finals experience."

So all this time you've been concerned about which NBL team is linked to the highest NBA draftee? How foolish of the other 7 teams in the league to be focused on winning an NBL championship? God the Wildcats are such chumps, all those meaningless championships and no draftees.

Can you explain how Perth 'cut and replaced all season'?

They cut one player, his replacement went home citing mental health issues, the cut player returned, then was released for violation of the drugs rules. My maths is terrible but thats one cut, which puts them amongst Sydney, Melbourne, Cairns and Brisbane.