Hoops

Will LeBron retire if the Cavs win?

Says kr who grew up with Kobe and claimed he was better than MJ on the old board

Kobe isn't top 10!

I'm fine with disengaging the comparision (at least for now) as long as we agree unanimously that Kobe isn't in the LBJ/MJ escheleon.

IMO both players are clearly past him.

As long as he stays away from Philly, I don’t care what he does or where he ends up with regard to Michael Jordan.

He will be one of the all-time greats. HOW great is all subjective speculation.

"Aren't we lucky the best things were around when we were young and impressionable?"

Says kr who grew up with Kobe and claimed he was better than MJ on the old board.

I for one am looking forward to the release of the MJ 10 part 30 for 30 series in 2019, hopefully this will show the people who never got to see MJ play during his era how incredible he was. personally I remember watching MJ play when I was 6 years old, blew me a way and I had a basketball in my hand everyday since that moment till I left high school.

Interesting thread, but I'm sticking with my point that the differentiating factor between MJ and LBJ is the performance of LBJ's teams in the 2011 and 2014 Finals.

At one point during one of his seasons in Miami I saw a story about a computer simulation that could determine the optimal defensive position on a court for all players based on where the offensive players and the ball was as it swung around to simulate an offense. When LeBron on D (again, during his Miami "peak athletic" years) was layered over the simulation based on actual possessions from a playoff game, he was ahead of the simulation - ie. he was getting to his spot ahead of what the simulation considered optimal.

For all the talk about how LeBron would struggle against the defenders of Jordan's era, imagine LeBron being able to play defense in that era. He definitely conserves his energy on the defensive end of the court these days, but with his age and usage rate on the other end that's pretty understandable.

I stopped reading at the part where you said LeBron wasn't elite at both ends.

Past it as a serious contributor yes or can you not remember all the problems he caused in LA & Dallas? He only played another 35 games in the NBA after that last season with the Bulls.

I misremembered Kukoc as he took years to finally come over to the NBA after being drafted and I remember him bouncing around with teams after the Bulls but yes looking up his numbers I had clearly he forgotten he improved after that. It might've marginally been Longley's best year but he broke down with injuries soon after. Harper had a better year the following year without Jordan & Pippen there.

The end was nigh with that Bulls team which is why Krause blew it up.

Karl Malone averaged 20+ ppg for the next five years after that. I'm not even sure what we're arguing about, both teams were old and right near the end of their runs.

I don’t know, depends which team in the West he played on yeah

I stopped reading at the part where you said LeBron wasn’t elite at both ends.

Rodman 15 RPG and past it? Topped the league in rebounding that year. Averaged 11+ RPG for the next two years. Kukoc coming out of his prime? That year he averaged 13.3 PPG. The next season he upped his scoring to 18.8 PPG, then 14.8 then 18. He had four years topping 13.3 PPG after that particular season. That was Longley's best year statistically. Harper's best of the last seven of his career.

And if you want to play the "coming out of his prime" card, that was Stockton's first season of his slide out of double figure assists. Hornacek only played two more seasons. Malone was 34 years old that season.

Isaac,

1. I'd take Jordan because he was elite at both ends of the floor unlike LeBron. Jordan had such a strong will and ferocious drive to win that I don't think LeBron has as much although he's unfairly viewed as flaky and giving up sometimes especially earlier in his career. Jordan was unusually big and strong for a SG too and with his superior defensive nous I think could guard 1-5 too at a pinch.

2. Was that me that second bit I can't remember? But I think I already said earlier in here that I think LeBron's too far back now to catch Jordan. 3-5 is just so much measurably worse than 6-0. I suspect that will be 3-6 too soon and once the Finals series finishes all this LeBron passing Jordan stuff will die down just like it did with Kobe. You can't be expected to be spoken as on the same level as Jordan with only a 33% success rate in Finals.

What would knocking off Kareem's all-time scoring record mean? It's a sign of longevity together with greatness. If Jordan hadn't missed 4.5 years he would've obliterated Kareem's record. Even after only playing 15 seasons he's still 4th all-time, the three guys above him played 20, 19 & 20 seasons each. Jordan missed most of his 2nd year due to injury and most of his first return season too he really did that in 13.5 seasons.

3. Those Jazz teams were obviously led by Malone (arguably best PF ever) and Stockton (best PG ever) secondary guys like Hornacek & Russell and complimentary role players. You don't remember Adam Keefe? I always remember him as being a star in college that was a high pick by Atlanta but never lived up to it. Handy role player. Kukoc & Longley were coming out of their prime and Rodman & Harper were past it.

I was surprised the Bulls got it done again that year and actually agreed with Krause blowing it up, if they had have gone on another year with that crew it would've been one rodeo too many I think.

He doesn't deliver in Finals. Jordan did. Every time. Simple!

Zodiac. You're picking a team from prime players to play in the modern game. Who do you pick first out of LeBron and Jordan? For the advantage in three point shooting and ability to defend each position, I think LeBron has the edge. He's no defensive slouch and can carry a team.

This strikes me as a really questionable point to make:

LeBron looks like he's headed for #2 all-time but he'll never get to Jordan's level.

Those late 90's Jazz teams were every bit as good as those Spurs teams if not better

Not long ago everyone was saying how Kobe was better than MJ. Oh how everyone forgot about that so quickly.

Your shout then, LV............

Bear..

[To label one player the greatest or the best of all time is becoming folly and serving little purpose other than a sporting debate worthy of a few good beers at the bar IMHO!]

....which is a worthy purpose!

[That will take quite a few beers...]

Not a bad problem to have. Or enjoy :-)

Another thing back when Kobe won his first title without riding Shaq's coattails in 2009 some commentators like Mark Jackson & Greg Anthony said Kobe had now surpassed Jordan as the GOAT.

Putting aside the fact those two played on Knicks teams that Jordan routinely knocked out of the playoffs and were clearly still sore about never winning a championship because of him but back then was the 'now' even plenty of Lakers fans were saying Kobe had now surpassed Jordan. It sounds comical even saying this.

Commentators have TV spots to fill and column inches to write to keep their jobs and nothing gets people more worked up than saying Kobe or LeBron has now surpassed Jordan or the almost sacrilege Tendulkar has passed Bradman.

If you're young enough not to know better that's understandable but if you saw prime Jordan not Wizards Jordan and you think LeBron or even Kobe has surpassed Jordan's level you're buying the sports media's rubbish.

No Spurs disrespect here MACDUB- I'm a long time Spurs fan. That 2014 effort was phenomenal. It remains my favorite basketball moment of all time.

But point is, if Lebron was the GOAT then he would've done a bit more to stop the rout. His individual numbers weren't bad, but you can't claim to be better than Jordan and let your team lose 3 straight finals games with a foregone conclusion by 3 quarter time.

Yes, the Spurs played the best team basketball I've ever seen (notwithstanding that the Warriors later took the same style and arguably improved it by adding improved 3 point shooting), but Jordan I still can't believe that Jordan would've let his team get humiliated like that on the grandest stage of all.

No one disputes Donald Bradman as the greatest and best test batsman of all time because his average may never be beaten

So, my point is to start a counter argument to the GOAT or Best Ever discussion by suggesting that there has to be some quantifier or at least some reasonable effort to even up any comparisons by adopting a qualifying set of rules or guidelines.

Say MJ has the most rings and he is the best in that category, say he is the best in whatever category you like but then accept LeBron also has his best categories. They are among the best and greatest, too hard to sit there and formulate all the variables, then peoples own opinions and judgements.

That will take quite a few beers...

It's interesting how in bat sports (Babe Ruth in baseball and Donald Bradman in cricket) the consensus doesn't change but in ball sports everyone hops on the bandwagon of the latest player. Hmmm..

The comparison to Leigh Matthews (AFL legend) and how the next generation always appears to focus on the more recent champion is a valid one, however that just exposes the game itself and how statistics and legendary status can be so subjective if you want to paint it that way.

No one disputes Donald Bradman as the greatest and best test batsman of all time because his average may never be beaten, however the game has changed so much and champions in sport can only be judged on the era in which they have played if we want to talk about their status as legends or the greatest.

When it comes to statistics, yes we can compare them, but once again there are many variables, like rule changes, equipment improvements, changes in athleticism and the way the game is played, so on and so on...

To label one player the greatest or the best of all time is becoming folly and serving little purpose other than a sporting debate worthy of a few good beers at the bar IMHO!

IMO, the only time Lebron legitimately "choked" and lost a playoff series which he should have won was 2011. That in my view is his only "choke job". (people on social media will have you believe he should have won all 8 regardless of who he was playing).

In 2011, he was the best player in the world, he had a 29 year old Wade and a healthy 27 year old odd Bosh. As good as Dallas were, he severely under-performed.

All the other years I believe he was simply beaten by better teams (2007 Spurs team were great and LBJ had a rubbish team, 2014 Spurs shot the absolute lights out and would have bet any team that playoffs, 2015 he lost to a GSW team that went 67-15 and he was without Kyrie and Love for most part, 2017 he lost to perhaps the greatest NBA team ever).

Perspective is key.

Frankly, I think anyone who criticises LBJ for those non-2011 finals losses is only disrespecting the Spurs and the Warriors and undermining the quality of those teams.

And to elaborate on my post above, I’m not just tallying championships. I think it’s utterly ridiculous to say “Jordan 6, Lebron 3. Game over”.

The circumstances of the losses matter. I don’t hold 2015 against Lebron for example- playing the Warriors, without Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving and the Cavs made it a competitive series with Lebron putting up insane numbers.

But if there are two events that differentiate Lebron from Jordan, and show clearly why Lebron is nowhere near as great as Jordan in my mind, it’s the 2011 Finals and the 2014 Finals. 2011- Miami had the two most talented players on the court- Lebron being number one, and they were beaten soundly. In 2014, it was a reckoning- Miami got SMASHED.

(Go Spurs :-) )

I remember after 2016, I first started entertaining the possibility in my mind that Lebron could one day become the GOAT.

Right now, it seems as though he’s inching closer to MJ by the year. The 2018 playoffs so far have definitely gotten him closer.

For mine, Jordan is still easily ahead. Lebron has a few years left to close the gap- and to be fair, he’s only 33.

Jordan did indeed have great teammates. Check out the YouTube video of Ron Harper posting 36 points against MJ on the first game of the 1989-90 season. In the 1989 playoffs, Harper shot 22 points in Game 5 but all anyone remembers is MJ hitting the game winner over Craig Ehlo. Ron Harper was a legit gun- one of the leading scorers on playoff teams in both Cleveland and LA before joining Chicago. After leaving the Bulls, he then won another two championships as the starting point guard for LA Lakers at the age of 36 and 37. Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Kukoc- a quality group. The earlier group with Horace Grant etc, as has been stated above, made the second round of the playoffs in 1994 with essentially the same team who won the previous 3 titles with Jordan.

But Lebron had peak Dwayne Wade in 2011, along with Chris Bosh and some decent role players. And they didn’t win the championship.

I think in 2013 and 2014 Wade was in decline, but was still a superstar and Bosh was still an All Star. And again- only 1 championship. And a lucky one at that- with the Spurs giving up two straight offensive rebounds, allowing Ray Allen to steal game 6 in 2013. Lebron only winning 2 championships in 4 years in Miami is perhaps the biggest knock on his career.

Jordan, on the other hand, came up big. When Lebron has come up against legends like Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki in the Finals, his teams have been beaten. When Jordan came up against legends like Barkley and Malone, Jordan’s teams won.

That’s still the difference.

Yeah the fact LeBron is built like a brick and just plows down people isn't as good to the eye as MJ's finesse game.

Once the people who grew up watching MJ in the 90s are replaced in the media with millennials the narrative will swing towards Lebron being the greatest.

No one talks about Leigh Matthews being the greatest AFL player now like they used to, it's an era too far gone. Matthews made the comment himself that for 15 years after retirement players are spoken of even higher than before, then over the next 15 years they slowly fall out of favour.

Same thing in the NBA for Russell, Chamberlain, Oscar, Kareem... Jordan will be next and Lebron will be known as the GOAT for a number of years until his reign ends.

“The 'Jordan played against better competition’ theory is a myth just like the gender pay gap. “

What a terrible argument.

Yep we can agree on that they're the Top 2.

I disagree with most of what you say Zodiac but a good healthy discussion. My opinion differs from yours but neither of us can prove categorically that we are right. No one can. I think we can agree that they are 1 and 2 with our orders differing.

LeBron will retire if the Cavs win...

and MJ admits that LeBron is the real GOAT.

People are being too biased in the moment. Deep breath guys, relax and rethink. Zodiac well said.

AKA

LeBron may do better with lesser talent but Jordan was an absolute winner. Jordan never had the talent LeBron had in Miami in his 4 years there he only won 2 titles. Jordan unlike LeBron never got beaten in a Finals series, a perfect 6-0 and won 6 Finals MVP's too. LeBron has lost more Finals series than he wins.

IMO, LeBron has a fair way to go still to be genuinely compared with Jordan. The gap in success is too great at this point.

^^^^^
Very well put aka, LeBron makes crap teams win.

Yes, he is. MJ six titles, LeBron three.

If you want to use averages and not totals in your Jordan vs LBJ argument and you also want to give Jordan concessions for playing at ages 38-40 then the same concessions must be made at the other end of the scale for James. MJ played 3 years of college hoops and entered the NBA as a 21 year old where as James was only 18, just a kid. To say Jordan’s individual career averages are better than James is also incorrect. Jordan averaged more PPG and SPG only.

The ‘Jordan played against better competition’ theory is a myth just like the gender pay gap.

Jordan had MUCH better teammates and never had to do the amount of work as LeBron which is evedint by the teams records when they left.

The last season of the first 3 peat (92-93) the Bulls went 57-25 in the regular season. The following year Jordan left and in the 93-94 season the Bulls went 55-27. A drop off of 2 games.


LeBron’s last year in his first stint in Cleveland (09-10) the Cavs went 61-21 in the reg season. The following year when James was in Miami the Cavs went 19-63. A drop off of 42 games.

I used to be a Jordan ‘homer’ too and wouldn’t hear of anything about Kobe or James being better than him. I’ve put my bias aside and concede that LeBron is the best ever. The only people that would still have Jordan as better than LeBron are those that say ‘but nobody will ever be better than MJ’ which is a flawed argument. I get that Jordan may be your favourite hoops player ever, as he is mine, but he is not the G.O.A.T.

I don't know how anyone can make an argument for LeBron to be quite honest, Jordan's career averages are better than LeBron's and Jordan not only missed 1.5 years in his prime to improve those averages he also played the last two years of his career form age 38-40 seriously hurting his averages. Even putting aside the fact Jordan played in a tougher era against better talent.

Jordan - 30.1 ppg @ 49.7% fg (32.7% 3pts), 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.8 bpg

LeBron - 27.2 ppg @ 50.4% fg (34.4% 3pts), 7.4 rpg, 7.2 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.8 bpg

If like Jordan LeBron plays until age 40 those numbers will come right down too.

Lebron can still play at the highest level, he still has points to prove, he still has people saying he isn't number one, he is still fit and strong enough to carry a team and he isn't playing for the money, so no!

Because Jordan's East in the 90's right after the expansion teams diluted the league's talent were so much better.

The Eastern Conference of the 2000s is the weakest of all time. Put him in any other conference the streak of Finals appearances and him single handedly being able to pull his team through doesn't happen. Imagine the Cavs going through the West. Let's acknowledge this please. Everyone is getting way too carried away.

True Isaac, the current LeBron with his current physique would - but that's the point of difference. He's got that physique based on the advancements in sports science, training, diet, rest etc (on top of genetics) which he otherwise wouldn't have had in the 80s or 90s.

At this moment...

MJ is the greatest player of all time.
Lebron is the best player of all time.

MJ is the GOAT.

LeBron is the G.O.A.T for so many different reasons although no one did more to make the game global than MJ.

I don’t see any possible scenario where James retires after these playoffs. It would be an interesting dynamic if he lands in Philly with the alpha dog Embiid there and the dominant ball handler in Simmons playing the point. It would however prolong his career considerably not having to shoulder the load as he has these past 4 seasons in Cleveland. No one in the history of the game has had to do as much as LeBron to get his team success. That must be tiring.

His lifetime Nike contract is worth that apparently

LeBron has said on the record he wants to be worth a billion dollars so he will need to keep playing to keep his brand as current for as long as possible and then end his career with all the records which will enhance his legacy and equity. Dollar bills yo.