Hoops

ABC article about NBL and A-League fortunes

Channel surfed and saw the A-League Sydney derby being played. Both sides had sh!t hot jerseys with main sponsor logos that blend in seamlessly with the primary colour. They looked so professional.

So you want better Australian teams to play against worse opponents in games that mean even less?

It is hard to compare nbl players from 80-90's to the players of today. Today's players would be terrible if they had to do what previous generations used to do. Can you imagine current players working minimum 40 hour a week job while trying to play semi professionally. They wouldn't have any time to send tweets.

I think was a mistake going to summer for basketball. In summer they are competing with everything (soccer, cricket, tennis, beach, xmas functions, end of year celebrations, holidays, hot weather, etc, etc.) In winter was only competing with AFL & Rugby but NBL has one clear marketing advantage. It is played indoors out of the rain in nice cosy stadiums.

Head of Nine Sports Tom Malone had this to say about the NBL -

"NBL back on new FTA home
The NBL has started quietly on Nine, with Malone noting it will take time to build the audience.

“The NBL gets to the 16-39 male audience, which is very hard for advertisers to get to. We are starting slowly with the NBL but we are quite confident about the growth of the audience.

“What [NBL boss] Larry Kestelman has done in terms of putting his own blood, sweat and tears into rebuilding basketball in Australia should be applauded. The sport is at a point where it is about to take off again. The NBL is selling out venues and the sponsorship model is quite mature. With the right FTA promotion, which hopefully we will give it over the next three years, I am optimistic about where the audience can get to.”

Malone said there needs to be a process of educating the audience that the NBL is now available FTA on Nine. “The promos are up and running, but we only agreed to terms six months ago.”"


https://mediaweek.com.au/sports-week-nines-tom-malone-on-ao-move-nbl-on-fta/

"most Aussiies, especially ones of the bench, wouldn't get a game in today's league"

Given that at its peak in the mid 90s there were 100+ Australians in the league and these days around half that, this is probably true.

Exactly. When you rewatch NBL games from the 80s and 90s you can see that most Aussiies, especially ones of the bench, wouldn't get a game in today's league. I think that is also true for the 00s right until recently. I think the NBL has very much followed the global trend of players seeming to get longer, quicker and more athletic as the decades roll on.

The funny thing is, when I did the numbers a couple of years ago, the NBL has had more players with NBA experience this millennium than in the 80s and 90s. I think the fact they stood out more back then, as KR mentioned, makes it easier to remember them as better players, when they were perhaps just better in comparison to what they were playing against.

So more of the salary cap than ever was going to locals, and what was left was delivering less bang for buck.

For mine , the biggest issue between the calibre of imports we saw in the 80's and 90's was the opening of other markets

China wasn't an option , Europe wasn't an option like it is today. That left few other places to play ball around the world. Plus the NBA hadn't expanded in team numbers or roster sizes, there was no D/ G League. That meant there were higher calibre fringe NBA guys looking for jobs than there are today.

The NBL was a bonafide option for Adrian Branch , Winston Crite etc etc to come to at the time. A guy like Andre LaFleur was even playing SEABL as an option as all NBL slots were taken.

Fair enough Luke, but I disagree. Playing April-November would still have us in competition with European competitions and exclude a lot of fringe NBA players who were wanting to impress over the US summer. Back in the 80s-early 90s there wasn't as much competition from Europe, but that was changing by the late 90s.

I don't think the change with imports around the turn of the century was to do with the switch to summer, but rather around the double whammy that was the increased amount of local talent as the result of the participation boom, and the Australian dollar dropping significantly against the USD.

So more of the salary cap than ever was going to locals, and what was left was delivering less bang for buck. It didn't have a huge impact at the time because we had a number of established quality imports, established quality locals, deeper crops of young talent coming through and a small number of teams from what the league had for its first 15 years or so.

So I think that 98-02 period was the highest standard of play the NBL had until the past few years, and certainly a big step up on the standard of the late 80s, early 90s when we just didn't have the depth of locals to make it a world class comp from top to bottom.

That we miss out seeing for now. I wouldn't mind betting that most of those guys find their way to the NBL sooner rather than later.

Paul,
As of today I don’t think we need to go back to winter, but the initial change made pre 2000 put the league and game back a long way as the things I pointed out were the case at that time.

We have started to turn the corner with imports , Ennis was probably the first one that comes to mind.

Although that list of bigs pointed out in a few previous posts shows us the type of Aussie players we miss out on seeing in the NBL

I get that the discussion is about playing standard and to that end I can see an argument for being top 5 (but still disagree).

But if you're going to start talking about the NBL as being some world class league, the governance, lack of stability, lack of diversity in ownership and overall lack of teams can't be left out of the conversation. It isn't the league that is strong, its one guy's cheque book.

Btw Vince Crivelli on SEN confirmed an average of 65 thousand on 9Go so far and says the league is pretty happy so far with ratings and expects them to continue to improve.

That;'s why I think when we go to 9 teams we need to increase import quotas.

"Comparing an 8 team league in which half the teams are propped up at least in part by 1 guy and his mates, to an 18 team league where the talent is more spread but the league is far more stable."

I'm talking about playing standard, and the fact it is 8 teams is one of the reasons the NBL is such a high standard.

It would be fair to say the NBL is the best basketball league in the southern hemisphere

We have plenty of size, but all those kids are based overseas.

Just the guys in Europe.

Humphries 7'0 c
Lual Acuil 7'0 c
Landale 6'11 c
Reath 6'11 c
Mathiang 6'10 c
Motum 6'10 pf
Maker 6'10 pf
Pinder 6'9 pf
Cooks 6'8 pf
Jois 6'8 pf
Adel 6'7 sf

Also plenty of big guards and sfs in college etc that are Nbl level players.

The league will continue he to get bigger in terms of size over the next few seasons.

Comparing an 8 team league in which half the teams are propped up at least in part by 1 guy and his mates, to an 18 team league where the talent is more spread but the league is far more stable, and still the top end is far more talented than Australian leagues. Yeah I still have plenty of doubts.

other than size and skill and salary and professionalism we are not far off Spain

I think size is the area the NBL clubs would struggle against Euroleague clubs.

I've followed those leagues a long time, I don't personally see any way the NBL isn't comparable to the Spanish league now. Top NBL teams are now at a level where they can be competitive with most Euroleague clubs.

There's doubt. I can't see it being ahead of those other leagues I mentioned. Suggesting it is anywhere near par with the Spanish league is laughable.

Of course the NBL will jump up and down if they break a single round attendance record, especially beating one going as far back as 1995. And of course the A-League will do the same when they attract 40000 to any of their games. If there is something to promote that makes them look good, they will.

For me though, a 40000 crowd in an a-league match is generally a one off, a unique match or in this case a Melbourne derby to open the season. It was always going to be a huge crowd. General A-league crowds are much smaller and stadiums are far more empty. The NBL may or may not get another 48000 in a round, so really its just the two sports touting recent achievements.

Its how consistent these leagues manage to do well in the long run that will get people's attention.

I would now have the NBL alongside the ACB as the next best outside the NBA and Euroleague. I don't think there is really much doubt it's in the top 5 now (I used to rank it in the 5-10 range because it lacked quality big men, but that has changed), and certainly NBL teams' performances against NBA teams have been every bit as good as Euroleague teams.

I think its fair to say the NBL is potentially a top 5 league in the world. I'd say it is just outside that, but you could certainly build a case that it is top 5. The main thing is though that there are huge gulfs between the clear 1st (NBA) and 2nd (Euroleague) and then another huge gap below that to the likes of Euro Cup, Spain, Italy, Turkey, Russia, France, Germany etc. I don't personally see the NBL in that group.

As far as comparisons to the world game. The fact that it is so clearly the world's biggest team sport means it ceiling is going to be higher than basketball. It can be argued basketball is the number 2 team sport in the world, but again, there is a chasm between the 2.

Even here, the NBL is touting its opening round of 48,000 people, and the A League managed 40,000 to one game.

The idea that playing in winter would attract better quality imports is a myth. Those in top European competitions are locked in from September to May or June, they wouldn't be playing here. Not to mention the fact a lot of good imports are playing NBA Summer League, TBT or other comps/workouts in the US over their summer.

The imports we get are high class, and we would miss out on plenty of them if we shifted back to winter.

"What are the courts better than, exactly?"

Than they were before. Cleaner, crisper. Some clubs have had their rings re-done including Melbourne and Cairns. If you haven't noticed these things you haven't been paying attention.

At this point, the only stadium and court that looks shit in the league is Brisbane,

"Let's be honest though, you have to be some kind of tosser to use the phrase "Australian Football" to refer to Soccer."

What? You are an absolute moron Dazz.

At this point, the only stadium and court that looks shit in the league is Brisbane, but then again so does their team, coach, uniform, insert anything else here.

"What are the courts better than, exactly?"

Than they were before. Cleaner, crisper. Some clubs have had their rings re-done including Melbourne and Cairns. If you haven't noticed these things you haven't been paying attention.

What are the courts better than, exactly?

Let's be honest though, you have to be some kind of tosser to use the phrase "Australian Football" to refer to Soccer.

Yes 100% correct. The word Australian was not needed. Football is enough as it refers to the world game.... You know the one that is played almost everywhere.

Adding the term Australian implies that it is a game played and seriously followed only in some states of one country. An almost insignificant sport in the scheme of things.

The product looks better on TV as well, and I've been banging on about that for years. The production is better. The courts are better. They even upgraded Cairns so it doesn't look like such a shit hole and they've stopped playing at New Zealand's embarrassing second arena. They are definitely listening to the fans and learning and I can never remember a time where the NBL ever did that. Yes, First Ever!

To keep the fans happy the NBL even seems to be listening to fan feedback about commercials. That has to be a first ever.

I think the NBL is doing all the right things to hook new fans. And all the channel 9 cross-promotion helps. In the end, though, you want to have viable online offerings and ways for fans to see the games on their own terms - which they're providing. And you want to have great partners and sponsors pushing your brand, which they have. The conditions are right for the fanbase to build. We just need to see to what extent it does over the course of the season. Given the improvement in the product on every level I think new onlookers will be pleasantly surprised when they do stumble across the NBL as it stands today.

How is calling the NBL a top 5 league in the world a joke? Name me more than 4 leagues in the world better? Or are you one of those people who think college counts and is second best because more NBA guys come from there than everywhere else? Or that thinks D League is actually a good standard of basketball and not just a bunch of ball hogs?

NBL might be top 5, and is certainly top 10, so stating it "could" be top 5 is hardly a joke.

As for comparing NBL to A League, it seems basketball fans are more discerning than football fans. I think with football, there are that many leagues that it's hard to say that a top league is so much better than the others, while the NBA is so concentrated with talent, that if your only motive is to see the best possible basketball, you don't really need to look outside of the NBA.

To me the draw of the NBL is that it is Australian. As someone who cares about Australian basketball, the Boomers, and the future of the game here, I care about the NBL. I also care that I can get to a game and see it in person where the standard and intensity will be high, will be played by guys who, some of which, skirt NBA level and Olympic level, and where guys will go on to develop and grow as basketballers. For people who don't care about such things I can see why they wouldn't even bother unless something breaks that ice for them.

I think the NBL is starting to break some ice though. Channel 9 is doing a good job cross promoting the league on its other shows and on its Facebook. NBL is being given a real chance on 9Go and the newspapers are starting to treat it like something viable. The NBL is being given all the help it needs to grow, but that good faith will need to be repaid in rising viewership.

NBL top 5. Bigger joke than First Ever

NBL games aren't exactly selling out. NZ, Illawarra, Sydney and Brisbane are half-full most weeks.

Soccer stadiums hold more people, you will likely get bigger crowds

^ this. Yet the Socceroos get all the headlines, corporate sponsors, mainstream discussion. The Boomers only make the news if there's a brawl or something...

The A-league hasnt been able to capatalise on the socceroos status or big european leagues and is positioned lowly on a global scale. Whereas the NBL is forging close links to the NBA and is a bonafide top league globally. Yet soccer is still far more popular here as evidenced by crowds and ratings.

People forget the NBL could be a top 5 league in the world, maybe already is. Boomers could be 2nd best international team in a few yrs. The A League is probably not yet a top 30 league and is a long long way off ever being in the top 20 with Asian leagues getting better. Socceroos are way off cracking the top 20 in the world.

Good to see the NBL featured in a comprehensive article with the A-league. The two leagues are very similar and have similar challenges. Been waiting a long time for such an obvious article to be written about (unfortunately its slightly on the negative side as it talks about struggling ratings)

It seems strange to me that they chose to show the Fox Sports ratings as opposed to the 9Go ratings, which stood around 65 thousand for both games last weekend according to my sources.

But I also wonder whether the ceiling for the NBL is much lower than Kestleman and his crew may be anticipating. There's been some talk of making NBL the second biggest sporting league in Australia. I think it's a fantastic ambition, but realistically, I'd say it's near enough to impossible. I think if the NBL rated as well as women's netball, big bash, A - league or any of those second-tier sports it would be a big win for the league.

Luke he was an athlete and they're not that bright.

99.9% don't understand that NBL aligning itself to the global basketball calendar actually hit player movement, all they do is bleat over footy codes. The other point was having two seasons back to back (the last winter season followed by the first summer) which was crazy and burnt fans out.

Years ago I had then BA CEO (? Unsure of official title) Larry Sengstock as a lecturer for a few weeks during uni classes in sports management. He posed the question to the class, ‘what are some reasons the NBL isn’t as popular etc in the 80’s/90’s.
I put my hand up and mentioned the following
- moving from winter to summer to avoid conflicting with footy instantly made the Nbl conflict with the NBA and Euroleague
- quality of imports went from end of bench/rotation nba guys that came here for good offseason pay check and quality league, think Chris Jent at north Melbourne after winning championship at Rockets, Adonis Jordan after Kansas, Mcaffrey from Duke/Vanderbilt to guys not good enough to be on those rosters or Europe, so your drawcard players instantly became lower quality

- best aussies were in tough choice of staying in Europe or playing in fledgling league. David Andersen good example. While in Winter numerous Aussie stars had shots at Europe in our off season, gaze, maher, Rillie etc

So yes moving to winter avoided clashing with AFL, but your product became inferior the second the season changed.

His response

‘Never thought of those things’

Roy Morgan 2018 says Basketball over 1 mill http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/7498-sports-participation-australia-december-2017-201802150615

Aus Play which is Australian Sports Commission official data say 595,000 https://www.ausleisure.com.au/news/new-ausplay-figures-show-football-leads-sport-participation-rates-in-austra/

Huge variance between the two data sets particularly for AFL

Why do BA need the NBL to hold their hand re: gathering statistics. My word BA are hopeless.

The 595,000 figure is from a survey and I think the over 1 million number the NBL and BA put out there is from the database of basketball participants they are putting together.