Hoops

United vs Hawks, 29 Oct 2018

If memory serves, Hooley was subbed on in the last minute, after Kennedy fouled out. That was strategic- so that United had 3 guards to deal with the full court pressure, with Hooley being a better ball handler and free throw shooter than Moller.

None of that is relevant, or makes any difference to the point I've been making.

Your other comment about keeping players fresh is irrelevant to my example- Casper had just been sitting in the changerooms for 15 minutes. So clearly, keeping him off to start the second had nothing to do with giving him a breather.

Vintage LV.

Equally valuable. As I said, the value of a score at the end of the game is dependent on those scored (and prevented) earlier in the game.

Correct Paul. And which basket is the most valuable- the one at the crescendo, to which there is no reply and after which, the result is decided? Or the many valuable baskets prior?

Yes, because both teams have scored close to an equal amount of valuable baskets leading up to the final minutes, bringing the game to a "crunch" at the end.

Isaac, there's a reason it's called "crunch" time.

There are only certain players that the coach will ask to shoot a game winner.

Why was Vickerman ok with Hooley on court to start the second half, giving him ther opportunity to score those baskets earlier in the game, but he wouldn't generally want Hooley on at the death?

In other words Paul your last comment is 100% true but also irrelevant to the question.

Vickerman for PM because he saved a starter for crunchtime! LV's uncovered an incredible coaching ploy!

LV, I admire your resilience, but you pick some bizarre points and reasons to argue them.

No, because 'clutch' baskets are only relevant if you've scored enough baskets earlier in the game.

Also, if certain players can score in the clutch but others can't, then that alone tells you that clutch baskets are more valuable than other baskets.

Which is my whole point.

You're assuming that "worth" is measured in points. Worth just means value. Value is not measured entirely in quantifiable terms of "points".

Also, consider the way Casper started the Perth game- 5 or 6 points in the first minute. Then what, 11 points in the first 3 or 4 minutes last night?

Vickerman would've been well aware of this. But still decided to bench him to start the second half.

Of course- this isn't an absolute statement. It's always context dependent- and the context of this whole discussion was a basket denied with 1.4 seconds remaining.

Assuming a close game though, a basket at the end is always worth more, for the reasons outlined.

And as last night's game shows, coaches will defer to the assumption that the end will matter more, even during a game that isn't close. No one's adequately answered the question of why Vickerman was saving Casper, even though there was the possibility of leaving him on court (he had 14 first half points) and blowing out the result from a 17 point lead to an unassailable 25 or 30 point margin. The only reason he was off the court was because of foul trouble. The question is why does this matter? Why not just leave him on the court and risk him getting a 4th foul? Why save him to increase the chances he'll be able to play minutes late in the game?

"If a point is scored early, the other team can always reply. A basket denied in the dying seconds leaves no opportunity for a reply."

If the other team had scored another basket earlier then that score in the dying seconds might be meaningless to the result. A late score isn't of more value than an early score - buckets at any time of the game are equal, with exception of 3s over 2s obviously - but they can be harder to get at certain times of the game.

If a point is scored early, the other team can always reply.

A basket denied in the dying seconds leaves no opportunity for a reply. It is final. That Casper Ware bucket would’ve been the final word in that game.

Now, if he’d scored another bucket earlier, you could say “Well there’s his two points”, but that ignores context- 2 points earlier will shape the way the game is played later. Hence- there’s opportunity for a reply, and to shape how to reply.

LV, no one has ever denied having your best scorers on at the end is the right move, or that the ability to score in the clutch is valuable. The context of the “all points are equal” argument is generally around “bad/missed” calls at the end of the game, where people (usually you) say that it cost one team the game, while completely ignoring that a bad or missed call anywhere else during the game may have cost the other team two points, and no matter which way you spin it, those two points are worth no more or less than two points.

PS: Paul added some beef, but he pretty much explained exactly why my point was correct

That my point is in fact accurate, I don't think anyone doubts except maybe the one and only Koberulz.

You're late to the party here buddy.

This whole conversation was in reference to Casper's denied basket with 1.4 seconds left in overtime.

Pay some more attention next time.

However if enough baskets are scored at the start/during the game than those late baskets are meaningless in the big scheme of things, hence the "garbage time" expression.
As such, using your "logic" at the start baskets are worth more than late game ones!
Oh and coaches do start players in foul trouble on the bench, no mystery there or some diabolical plan, it's basketball 101.
Keep pumping yourself LV, your coaching and analytical commentary is hysterical!

Thanks Paul, for explaining what LV made a mess of.

Exactly Paul.

"Worth " is not merely about how many points are contributed but how hard those points were to get. End game buckets are more of a scarce resource.

"Here's a question for those people who think a basket early in the game is equal to a basket late in the game."

A basket early in the game is equal to a basket late in the game, that's indisputable as they contribute the same on the scoreboard. What gets lost in that discussion is baskets late in a close game are often tougher to get, because the intensity of the defence rises. That's why players who can score (or create) in late-game situations are highly valued.

Proves my point- coaches know that a bucket at the end of a game is worth more than a bucket half way through a game.

United wont win a title if DJ Kennedy is in the team!

I'm liking these United-Hawks matchups.

Well done Hawks, Naar was a spark off the bench, Conklin unstoppable down low. Jett toiled hard but Casper brought his A game tonight.

United's unconvincing start to the season continues.

They know it too. Poor body language not great for a team who's 3-2 and had a win without their MVP from the season to date. They expect better, so do I.

Audio and video have been excellent for me on NBL.TV throughout.

Glad the Hawks made a game of it after a hapless start.

Maybe Kennedy is still struggling with some of his injuries

Casper having the game we've all been waiting for

Kennedy a bit of a worry though

Just isn't very aggressive. Not what I was expecting from a guy who's scored as many as he has, in good leagues, with plenty of those points coming from the line

Please no post-game interview with Barlow, the bloke was PAINFUL at half time

United with several guys in foul trouble here

Ogilvy once again proving to be an oxygen thief

anyone else having problems with the audio on nbl TV? mine is absolutely rooted. sounds like two seperate audio commentary tracks playing simultaneously.

We have a ballgame.

This might go to 5 overtimes.

[LV, I think just resting him on the off-chance he could get away with it given the way Illawarra was playing]

I get that.

But on the other hand, you're up 17, why not try to get an unassailable 25 point lead and bury them?

Fact is, Vickerman didn't want to risk Casper getting another foul unless absolutely necessary. If Casper had not been in foul trouble, he would've been on the court. Vickerman wanted to preserve him to increase the probability that he's available for the dying minutes.

Proves my point- coaches know that a bucket at the end of a game is worth more than a bucket half way through a game.

Elbows!

anyone else having problems with the audio on nbl TV? mine is absolutely rooted. sounds like two seperate audio commentary tracks playing simultaneously.

LV, I think just resting him on the off-chance he could get away with it given the way Illawarra was playing.

Melbourne is due... for a bucket

Here's a question for those people who think "a basket early in the game us equal to a basket late in the game"

Why did Casper start 2nd half on the pine?

Because Vickerman wants him on at the end of the game. When it matters most.

Interesting sub plot here is Casper's foul trouble

Good test for Hooley, McCarron and Kennedy's ball carrying under pressure

Coenraad starting the second half.

As predicted so far.

They ran a couple of plays for Kennedy in the opening minute, unfortunately he didn't make the most.

Casper caught fire early.

Feeling good. Hopefully Moller gets more time in second half.

Why does games start at 750pm here in Melbourne but 630 over in the West?

750pm is quite late.

I just don't get Bevo's aversion to using Coenraad. He was +18 last outing and didn't play half the game. Is he injured tonight? Played 3:48 and then that's it.

Sure, he has Blanchfield at his position, but give him some of Jett's minutes or Grida's. I would've thought that he can play 2-4 OK?

Getting out-rebounded and woeful from three. He works hard on the boards and is a decent shooter.

Oh wow. Melbourne are way on top. Playing great basketball. This game is making me sleepy early.

I don't think that Illawarra will be here next season.

And United looking like Dean Demopoulos era United during that hot streak.

Dave Barlow running down the key for a jam like it's 2004.

Ced Jackson and Jet are sub-par

What is with goldilocks Jett's ponytails?

With the seabl, obviously the teams fly to games ? Ie- dandenong going to hobart? Do the players have to pay or do the clubs cover it and therefore do the clubs need to have a certain amount of capital (at the start of the season) to guarantee they can attend all games