Hoops

Perth v Melbourne 12k viewers on 9GO in Perth

Oh, and it wasn't long ago Perth had basically half of Friday nights on One as the late timeslot at 9:30PM eastern time suited their schedule (Ten didn't want to show live games at 7:30PM EDT). They won big time with that arrangement. You win some, you lose some. Give and take.

'Cats requested more FTA games. The 9Go! FTA timeslot was TBA, then locked in at 3pm EDT. They rolled the dice and lost.

"Yeah, fairly skeptical on that. It rates almost around 30K on Fox Sports so the chances are it is doing about double that or more on FTA."

From the same source, the average on Fox Sports is around 20,000 so far this season, up from 14,000 last season. GO average is at 40,000, but take out the 60,000 from the first game and it is closer to 30,000 which is what NBL usually gets on free to air TV.

Wow. Just wow.

Home opens. How many does this really affect?

Fading curtains? Move to Qld to be with like “minded” people.

Food sales/ fans more valuable at 12 pm? The venue probably has a catering contractor, paying “rent” on a lease.

It’s potentially more of a problem for visiting interstate teams. Will Conklin have enough elbow room if they fly out after the game? Will there be room for Lamar Patterson’s doggy bag?

So many unanswered questions.

Wider availability.

Source for the TV numbers is an employee of the NBL.

So pretty much it comes down to those trying to point out problems
vs the "we hate Perf cos it suks" brigade

give it a rest

We live on another planet. #Perthworld

We missed a couple of home opens therefore the league should abandon its strategic plan for growth and profitability. LK is wrong. We are experts on long term prosperity eg. the mining boom.
Sincerely,
Perfians

*GWS

I don't "by" the idea that the Wildcats model is the one LK wants.
Does he want the teams packing out venues? Yes of course he does. But I'm pretty sure that his ideal vision includes the league actually being profitable, which includes being visible so that sponsors want to be involved.

If that were the case, he'd be doing what the AFL does and propping up basket cases in every corner of Australia.

Since that first game that got big ratings the average on Go has been closer to 30,000.

Yeah, as several people have said the repercussions won't truly be felt until membership renewals are due.

The Wildcats don't help themselves by making renewals due in March, either. That's entirely too early for anyone. I remember a few years ago the deadline was late June or early July, which at least gives a decent amount of time for fixtures to be released.

Most members would have renewed not only not expecting weekend morning games, but expecting the vast majority of games to be in the usual Friday night slot.

"That is far more important than a few spectators being unable to attend a game. It may have immediate short term financial implications."

I actually think the bigger concern for Perth would be potential long-term implications of losing membership due to the game time and, just as importantly, how it was handled.

fta tv, not fat tv.

“NBL viewer numbers need to increase by 50-100 percent to be similar to the A League.

The A leagues current contract is $50+ million per year.“

Any sources for this info??

I would have thought that if the above figures are accurate, the NBL broadcast rights would be worth “something”, but obviously less than $50 mill p.a.

I think HJs, MG plus the betting and chemist ads would add to the value. How many willing advertisers would the league need for it to be a viable product on fat tv? Obviously more costly in prime time.

I don’t pretend to know the ins and outs of fat tv deals, but if the NBL can bring more advertising revenue and more viewers, it makes it a more valuable fat product.

bottom line,IMO, is demonstrated popularity from the public, attending and watching (tv etc).

Full stadia should be the priority. The at-game experience is fabulous which, in turn, helps excite the viewing audience, making that a more viable proposition.

The individual clubs should focus on what they can actually influence by going all out to fill their venues. The NBL (organisation) should be allowed to focus on the bigger audience (media). After all, did they not recruit Demitrio (excuse spelling, if wrong)(is he still on the board/staf. Have not heard a word of or from him, ...ever!) from the AFL to do exactly that?

Would consistently full venues not help with acquiring major media contracts? I think they would.

Would we all like both?

Anon, merely illustrating a point and flaw in someone elses thinking. My opinion, we have to be weary of robbing peter to pay paul with this fta arrangement.

Thanks for explaining the timeline, J. Looks like the league is definitely doomed so might as well let Larry know these facts so he can pull the plug.

As has been pointed out earlier, food for thought complained about the league going backwards talent-wise and how teams haven’t spent enough, but thinks nothing of a club losing $200k in revenue. Hmmm....

Food for thought my point was that the lag time before the fta ratings becoming profitable for teams could hit the quality of player teams can afford if their bottom line is hit, and that could then affect the fta value if teams are getting worse, but i guess the capacity to understand a timeline is lost on some people...

Year 1 Teams lose money due to bad fta times
Year 2 teams lose money due to bad times, tv deal only breaking even i.e cover production costs
Year 3 teams cant afford your cottons and wares due to loss of income, fta deal pays a marginal cost to teams
Year 4 tv deal was ready to come good but product last year was crap due to lack of good players, tv deal and team quality goes further backwards

@ food for thought. There is no where else. The Wildcats were deep in the red at challenge with its 4400 seats. Brndat used to write a check just to cover venue hire. The first season at the arena was the first in the black almost since the pec shut.

"The challenge is what is the value of the advertising during the coverage. Yes higher viewer numbers assist, but so does a positive trajectory. What 9 is providing in cross-promotion is extremely valuable."

I think more accurately it's potentially valuable. A good start would be covering the serious cost of producing all games for TV, anything on top of that in the first year is probably a bonus given the lack of viewers and small pool of advertises.

The facts are that the Perth Wildcats memberships renewed in April

"Another fact is that when Nick Marvin was CEO of the Wildcats he came out and said in an article that the club needed 12000 coming to every game just to break even with the rental of Perth Arena"

Got a link for that? because it sounds like bull

@food for thought...

The facts are that the Perth Wildcats memberships renewed in April so you can understand the angst that those that can't attend games have towards TPTB in fixturing games they can't attend.

Another fact is that when Nick Marvin was CEO of the Wildcats he came out and said in an article that the club needed 12000 coming to every game just to break even with the rental of Perth Arena (it was well well over budget so Wildcats being charged for that). So if you're saying that getting 11500 is not gonna kill us but in hearing the exhorbitant rental fees then maybe they are doing their arse!.

I'll also add that whilst yes the Wildcats have taken care of their fans, a ticket to a game still isn't cheap let alone getting any of the merchandise and a cup of cider is $10 and meat pie is $8.50... so it isn't a cheap night out... but I don't see Wildcats changing my $55/seat per game tickets to $20 for morning games ever.

Good luck to the NBL and their ratings but I personally watch every single game of NBL so I don't give a shit who is on FTA and who isn't, 9catch up works great for me.

That's not correct FFT, for starters 12K is the average audience in Perth (according to the boxes) at any point in the broadcast, not the total viewership, there would have been significantly more watch the game in total. Secondly, the nationwide Fox average audience last year was something like 18K, so the share of that in Perth was likely less than 5K on average.

The Wildcats probably did ask for more FTA TV time, seduced by this will bring more sponsors.

That are probably now regretting it as they have had negative fan feedback for the timeslots.

But if the NBL was filling stadiums with a national loyal fan base and they went to the TV and said here you go Perth v Sydney available live 6:30pm WST and we know you will get 50,000 people watching across the country at either 8pm or 8:30pm local time....put in your bids!

League sources? Team sources? Or fans?

Food for Thought is definitely identifying the hurdles of sustainability, yes the NBL has to get the FTA TV and Corporate sponsorship to get the league sustainable, so he/she is right in what they are saying.

Not right about toothless bogans....I have some friends that have a couple of teeth between them.

The point I am putting forward is that there is a seduction of $$$ and perceived success by getting the NBL on TV, by signing corporate sponsorship's....but if these deals are negotiated at the expense of the fan base i.e poor time slots, higher ticket prices, players at sponsor events rather than school bball clinics etc you erode the fan base and eventually kill the league.

I think Kestelman can get it right, but if he is still putting his hand in his pocket to support the NBL, then time is going to be the enemy.

So if you are a basketball fan, get a membership for your team and get to your games!

"I've heard from multiple sources that Perth specifically asked for a higher FTA allocation this year in order to better attract sponsors."

League sources? Team sources? Or fans?

"The deal is based off the netball arrangement. The revenue generated (advertising) led to a multi-million dollar cash investment into the sport. Basketball's viewer numbers are in the same ball park as Netball's when their tv deal commenced."

So what was netball's model? Who was the multi million dollar cash investment from?

If TV rights start to be worth something then every team will benefit from that and it would be something that helps the smaller teams build better rosters

Food for thought, the problem with your thinking is by the time the fta deal becomes worth something you may have actually killed of some of your your most profitable fan bases in perth, which would be far from ideal. Its amusing that on one hand you are happy for the bottom line of teams to be hit for "the greater good" yet you had another thread complaining that the standard of the league had dropped due to a "tightening of purse strings". I hate to mess your thinking up but hitting teams bottom line (esp bigger spending/name teams) will not improve the quality of players that team can afford, so your fta good of the league, by your own reasoning should actually be bad.

Yep, I think that everything is heading in the right direction, and Kestelmen has been nothing but fantastic for Australian Basketball.

And Yes trying to see how we can get the FTA deal to work is the next challenge to sustainability. Just have to keep focused on whats important and not get too seduced by TV $$$.

This has included, scheduling game times with their membership in mind and which brought the most ticket buying fans to the game. Friday nights, Sat nights and the odd Sat afternoon.

You may not also know that Jack Bendat, who is fan focused, was not happy with the NBL scheduling the games that he offered to buy back any tickets for the Sat games which fans could not attend.

So the Wildcats couldn't change the schedule, but they thought of the fan first and said what can we do to say to you our members are still more important than a TV deal any day.....as much as a TV deal is good, no fan no TV.

Food For Thought

I am not saying Perth Fans are the center of the universe, but as a basketball fan, I think what Perth have done over an extended period of time is very much put the fan first, and heavily engaged with their community, which has delivered the fan base they have today.

I think Adelaide have also been pretty successful at doing the same, few other teams have done anywhere near as well with their fan base and that has been the problem with the success of the league.

The best way for Kestelman to ensure the league is sustainable is to invest in the grassroots so that fans are turning up buying memberships and becoming loyal basketball fans. The TV & Sponsors only want eyeballs....they care little for basketball...its just content! Sustainability comes from loyal fan bases.

You can say all you want that Free To Air doesn't pay the bills, but whose bills are you concerned with? Yourselves? Just one team? There's a whole league to think about here.

The only other alternative is simply not to show games LIVE from Perth on FTA, but I just know there would be a chorus of toothless bogans howling about that too.

even with that ultra-inconvenient time slot, you're still pulling 11,000 fans through the gate

“ think Perth fans think they're the center of the universe a bit here. ”

If there is tangible evidence that this benefits the league, no problem. The quotes from the NBL in the article don’t really suggest there is though.

At the end of the day, people paid for a product but in some ways aren’t getting what they paid for. I get some people are being precious about it but the individuals that genuinely can’t attend games now have every right to be annoyed.

“For your team to exist, the NBL needs to exist”

Yep, and go back five years when the Wildcats were the only team turning a buck, but had to re-invest their profit into the league in order for it to survive. So only a short time ago, for the league to exist, the Wildcats needed to exist. Maybe some appreciation for that would be better than calling their fans toothless bogans.

How about playing a few more east coast games at 3pm to satisfy the broadcaster?

Bigger issue is next year, I know a lot of members didn't check the schedule (me included), given we have not had a Sat lunchtime often in the past...I will not auto-renew my tickets for next year until I know the schedule. I don't want to pay and miss out on 20% of the home games again. I expect there might be a few others that will do the same.

The crowd numbers have been higher than I expected. Bigger issue is next year, I know a lot of members didn't check the schedule (me included), given we have not had a Sat lunchtime often in the past.

I have not been able to attend any of the Sat games and have given my tickets away to family & friends. I will not auto-renew my tickets for next year until I know the schedule. I don't want to pay and miss out on 20% of the home games again. I expect there might be a few others that will do the same.

What I do hope is that both the NBL & Perth Wildcats don't get too greedy for both corporate success and $$$. The Perth Wildcats have done well by focusing on building up a grassroots following of loyal community fans. They do this by school visits, basketball camps, junior basketball games at half time etc. Cost of membership also needs to be kept affordable for the average Perth Family.

While TV & corporate sponsorship is important there is nothing to gain long term by meeting their needs over grassroot basketball fans. Such as timeslots that are not local fan friendly.

Sydney Kings have been in my opinion the example of how it can go wrong. Forever they have focused on glitz, glamour and corporate deals with little invested in the community fan base....and they have struggled to maintain a loyal following like the Wildcats have.

I feel the A-League and NRL have all gone the same way (without any fact).

Stay focused on your fan base, build everything around your average suburban family and reach out to them as much as you can in many different ways....then the corporate sponsorship and prime TV slots will come your way and they will not hold the negotiating power, as you control the eyeballs and wallets that their salivating little marketers want to reach.

Right now the negotiating power is with the FTA, Foxtel and corporate's and hence we end up with outcomes that are not fan focussed. Fans drop away...TV and corporate sponsorship deals disappear and we go back to where we were before LK. Playing out of local rec centres again.

The average fan!

Perth doesn't give 2 shits about FTA, that doesn't pay the bills.

There is potential for the NBL to benefit if the audience grows over the course of the deal, but early on I would say it's more likely to cover some, or hopefully even all, of the broadcast costs.

What concerns me about this is, back when the NBL introduced midweek games for TV they gave a lot them to the Townsville Crocs because they had big crowds and a loyal fan base. There was a lot of ill-feeling about that in Townsville and the club never managed to rebuild their connection with the community.

Now things mightn't go as bad for Perth as a result, but taking your fanbase for granted is never a good idea, and that's what the NBL has done here.

Had the NBL and Wildcats come out together and explained the situation, acknowledged the inconvenience for some fans and offered some sweeteners or refunds straight up, they would have avoided a lot of the negativity. As others have said, we'll see the first real signs of impact for Perth next season.

Cats could be losing hundreds of thousands due to this, if there is no flow of cash to compensate from that loss from a tv deal then yeah it does and should matter to all clubs affected. No business wants to see their revenue drop that significantly let alone drop at all

Fair enough. Anyone who doesn't want to go to most of the games would be silly to buy a membership.

This was always going to be an issue

The NBL simply doesn't generate any TV revenue to dictate terms to teams that are reliant on ticket sales as their revenue source

TV doesn't generate enough ratings for Tier 1 sponsors to off set the loss in the stands for the game in tv value.

It wasn't that long ago that AFL teams were on delay in the host city so that it didn't impact on the clubs revenue streams. Now that they have the big TV deal , TV dictates what and when to the AFL.

NBL clubs are coping it hard as LK tries to fake their way to success.

as others have said, the true impact will be felt next year. I have been a member 26 straight years and I am going to the midday games, but not happy with them.

My kids aren't playing sport yet so not too hard to get to games, but will be in future. Just kills the whole day with a game at midday. 2pm should be earliest, even then it is much better at 4pm or 6pm like it has for every year since I can remember

I won't be renewing unless there is certainty on schedule and the 2 guys that sit with me are the same.

Most in our block aren't happy but would rather try and make it to games rather than waste their ticket as they had already paid for them.

Let's hope they get some TV certainty before the off season otherwise it may be tough off-season for membership renewals for the wildcats.

I think the benefit to the Wildcats from being on FTA in the Eastern States at 3pm on a Saturday would be minimal at best. If they had the choice, I am sure they would elect more fan-friendly start times and bigger crowds. they are basically being screwed by the NBL to satisfy its broader ambitions

The league and the Wildcats are kidding themselves if they think what they are seeing this season is the worst of it. I dont know anyone who likes the noon start time. Many, including myself have rearranged things to be there but hate the start time. I know many people members who cant make it so give their tickets away given they are already paid for. I wont renew next year if we have the same schedule as this year. Hopefully the league realises that they are going to have to give some certainty about next years schedule before the Wildcats ask fans to put their hands in their pockets for next year as soon as this season finishes

It will also be interesting to see what happens with the other three games that were originally in the schedule as a noon start but are now TBA