Hoops

Best Australian Basketball player of all time

^idiot

There is a difference between acknowledging facts and being crass and discussing or referring to appendage size etc etc. Either talk about actually things that are relevant to the OP and basketball or go away. No one is really interested in the other garbage.

"ME and Perthworld take your sexist and misogynistic views elsewhere"

Okay, so simply acknowledging facts is sexist and misogynistic now?

Go away Perthworld you crass piece of shit

As with a lot of these arguments, there are so many ways to define "best" that you end up going around in circles.

Even saying best "career" - what does that mean? Individual awards? Team success? Money made?

ME and Perthworld take your sexist and misogynistic views elsewhere

"Fucking hell. If a wheelchair basketballer played 10 years in whatever the top level of wheelchair basketball is, won 10 championships, 10 MVPs and two gold medals, they couldn't be the best basketballer we’ve produced simply because their legs don’t work?"

In short, yes. If you put this player on the same court as Lauren Jackson and started a game of basketball, I think Jackson would be far more effective in contributing to her team winning the game.

It doesn't mean wheelchair players shouldn't be admired and can't have a great career though.

@ME, two things:

1. Take a Valium.

2. I am backing our best wheelchair basketballer to destroy Ben in a wheelchair, according to those rules, until his jump shot improves anyhow.

"Andrew Gazes 130 minute NBA career is better than Lauren Jackson's WNBA career despite her winning two championships, three MVPs, 7 all stars, DPOY, three scoring awards, because he played in the same league as Jordan."

Well, basically, yes. Why? Because even the NBL is a far superior competition to the WNBA. Not sure why you're struggling to grapple with this.

"Fucking hell. If a wheelchair basketballer played 10 years in whatever the top level of wheelchair basketball is, won 10 championships, 10 MVPs and two gold medals, they couldn't be the best basketballer we’ve produced simply because their legs don’t work? Ben Simmons with his two popularity contest appearances has the better career?"

If you're going to pretend that this hypothetical wheelchair player could actually be better than Ben Simmons on any level you have rocks in your head.

Next thing you're going to say that the guy who can hit 10 out of 10 three point shots in his own backyard is better than Reggie Miller, just because you can't seem to comprehend that the competition you play against actually matters.

And so, the conjecture and bias keeps rolling on............

Until a woman can compete in a league with men, they're not in the conversation. I know we all want to be nice and courteous, and I know it's 2019, but this is reality. It would be like saying Sheryl Swoopes is better than Lebron James basically. There are no strict rules that prevent women from playing in the NBL or the NBA. If Zion Williamson were Ziona Williamson she could and would play NBA. But the female equivalent of these male players do not exist and to pretend that the leagues are equal until they do is ridiculous.

"A woman playing at the highest level they can play is playing at the same level that a man playing at the highest level can play."

Okay, so if that's the argument, how about we just throw in people with handicaps, wheelchair basketballers, players in social leagues who aren't particularly gifted but are "playing at the highest level they can play", because physically, that will be true?

You can't possibly call Lauren Jackson the greatest Australian basketball player of all time and simultaneously know that the top 3000 Australian male players would absolutely demolish her 1 on 1, in a team game, and on every conceivable level.

"No one:

Hoops: Men are better at sport so it is impossible that a woman could have a better career than any man.

"

Well, in some ways Lauren Jackson has had a more distinguished career than male players - in the league and level she plays in. But that doesn't make her the best Australian basketball player of all time because she could not compete at the level the male players competed at.

"So being able to dunk is more important than countless individual awards. "

I've found that people when struggling to come up with rational arguments just make up words that others said

"Lots of anons and PW pushing their mysoginist strawmen arguments."

Look, I love that women play the game and play it well.

But I have to apply common sense. Men are stronger and more athletic. They are better at basketball than women, and by some margin.

It is possible that a female player could have the most unbelievable skill level that it overcomes the physical disadvantage, but that hasn't come close to happening yet. At the end of the day basketball is a very dynamic game so athleticism plays a huge part.

I don't see how it is sexist to admit objective reality. There are no laws actually forbidding females from playing in mens leagues. There was even laughable talk of Lauren Jackson playing for the South Dragons at some point (until someone woke up to hotel reality). Until a woman can compete in a men's competition they can't be in this conversation. Period. (Pun intended)


The conversations about the greatest players of all time should always be separate, just as the competitions should always be separate, and it is most unfair to women if you combine the two. Better, lesser, that isn't really the point. They are two completely different beasts.

Ah, let's turn this into another BS left-right argument... great. Nice use of your first post here, Red 96.

Perthworld, you sexist bruh?

Timms, Jackson, Taylor, Bogut, Gaze.

more like feminist crap from the left

Lots of anons and PW pushing their mysoginist strawmen arguments.

The opp said best Australian basketball player, while it’s a matter of opinions, LJ clearly has the best credentials.

I'm calm. Meanwhile everyone else is going off on a female tangent the original poster UNC clearly wasn't asking about.

"(I don't go for the view that the NBA is a better competition than the FIBA World Cup or Olympics, sorry. Any competition which is open to the best players in the world MUST be stronger than one which is based around superior athletes from mainly one country.)"

The NBA is a very global league these days mate. It is very open to international players and teams have scouting all around the world. If you're good enough, you can play in the NBA, it doesn't matter which country you're from

" It's basically saying that the titles and medals earned by Margaret Court, Susie O'Neill, Dawn Fraser, Cathy Freeman, etc etc, didn't matter BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T MEN. FFS!!"

No one is saying they didn't matter, it just doesn't stack up as an argument as to why she is better than the great male players.

I could stack up a list of amazing accomplishments at my local rec centre but no one would consider me as the Aussie GOAT because they'd say the standard of competition isn't high.

It is a similar rationale for me why you can't consider LJ to be better than Gaze or Ben Simmons.

"LJ was the best female player in the world and achieved the most she could in the competitions she was able to compete in. "

I like how people use "in the competitions she was able to compete in" like the only thing holding her back from dominating men's competitions were the rules that didn't allow her to play.

Looks like Palubinskas has a certificate to say he is

UNC was the original poster of this thread - he clearly was referring to male players. Of course as is the norm nowadays someone just had to mention the opposite sex and didn't like the reaction when it was broken down quality-wise the difference between the two. Maybe next time keep quiet.

LJ was the best female player in the world and achieved the most she could in the competitions she was able to compete in.
Bogut and Longley and Gaze didn't dominate in their competitions as much as LJ. However, those men were the best Australian players if gender doesn't come into consideration. And they'll probably be overtaken by Simmons if he stays healthy and plays for Australia.

(I don't go for the view that the NBA is a better competition than the FIBA World Cup or Olympics, sorry. Any competition which is open to the best players in the world MUST be stronger than one which is based around superior athletes from mainly one country.)

Any talk about social players being better than LJ is just bs, unless you're someone who thinks that women's sports don't matter. It's basically saying that the titles and medals earned by Margaret Court, Susie O'Neill, Dawn Fraser, Cathy Freeman, etc etc, didn't matter BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T MEN. FFS!!

^ That was in reply to #859

I love all the trolls who name drop LJ to then set yet another thread up as another debate re: sexes. We are talking about the best here so it's clearly about males only.

I'm impressed you remembered the names of all of those scrubs.

Saying LJ is the best because she's achieved a lot in women's basketball is like saying a legend in the state league is better than the national league.

It's a lower standard!

Point is LJ would eat an nbl1 player, it’s all opinions but her list of achievement is better than all.

Ultimately ladies basketball is of a lower standard than men's. I understand genetics are in play but well that's life. Should I discount LeBron James from discussions about great players because he is more athletically gifted. Guess what, we are talking about an athletic game, it matters!

Jackson is the best female player but not the best overall. She would get destroyed in men's leagues so I can't see how she can be our greatest basketballer.

I know people will say she wasn't allowed to participate in men's comps but it doesn't take much imagination to know she wouldn't do that well.

Jason Eversteyn then daylight

She is not close. You should be banned for that blasphemy.

What about best Australian team ever?
Gaze
Simmons
Ingles
Baynes
Bogut

Bench

Delly
Mills
Broekoff
Vlahov
Longley

Sure I've missed a couple

CU

Lmao you are kidding. Jackson at her peak would have been a star even against men.

Williams is a greater player, she is not better. She could not beat the top NCAA mens tennis players. Like LJ could is not a better player than men playing in the lower leagues the the SEABL. Quite honestly 13 year old ben simmons would be the MVP of the WNBA until he is is about 60 if he kept playing.

How can he be considered aussie, he has never represented us at any level anywhere. FACT

Also FACT, he played for the US as a junior and at the Nike Hoop Summit. FACT and FACT.

Even the guy that said Luc Longly is greater the Bogut sounds less blasphemous than this rubbish. F? Fact.

Fact is that you just posted a load of horse shit. Fact fact.

LJ and Bogut are logical and evidence-backed answers. Kyrie is not. We would finish second with him playing, I don't think he values his career on gold medals. So why play for the US, well because he considers himself one of them. It's not like we have a bad team at all.

Bogut

Baynes

Mills

Exum

ingles

Ryan B

Simmons

Bolden

Maker

Green

Creek

Landale

i missed some surley but those players above win the sliver medal with kyrie.

What about best Australian to play in Australia professionally? I'd say Gaze is the heart and soul of basketball in Australia in terms of achievement in and for our country along with LJ.

Thank you AngusH, if you take the male and female out of it, Jackson has won more championships and mvp awards. That’s how it should be looked at, and those thinking that in her prime she would be just an nbl 1 men’s level have no idea.
Bogut and Longley up there as well and locally Gaze to.

He doesn’t consider himself Australian, he plays for the USA. No matter what you say he says, he’s American.

I think to be classed as an Australian you would play for Australia, Jackson played for Australia.

Are we including wheelchair basketballers in this?

There are some Rollers with pretty impressive international and local records, including Paralympic and World Championship gold medals - a rarity for Australian basketballers.

Players like Oliver, Sachs and Moloney come to mind, but only because I played against a couple of them in the 70s. I'm sure others have better knowledge than me about potential contenders for BABOAT among the wheelchair basketball fraternity.

If Irving really wanted to be Australian he would’ve played for Australia. It’s nice that he wants to come back for a holiday but he’s American.

Jackson it is.

D.20

Bogut does not have a three-point shot, and it was not apart of the game before his injury when he was playing his best. Despite this, he has remained effective in playing his role. There are plenty of players at his position that were forced out of the NBA because they could not adapt to a role that was suited to the current game.


Acheivments-


BOGUT
NBA champion (2015)
All-NBA Third Team (2010)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2015)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2006)
NBA blocks leader (2011)
NBL Most Valuable Player (2019)
All-NBL First Team (2019)
NBL Best Defensive Player (2019)
National college player of the year (2005)
Consensus first-team All-American (2005)
Pete Newell Big Man Award (2005)
MWC Player of the Year (2005)
MWC Freshman of the Year (2004)
No. 4 retired by University of Utah

BEST SEASON-
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bogutan01/gamelog/2010/


LUC-

3× NBA champion (1996–1998)
2× SBL champion (1989, 1990)
Gaze Medal winner (1989)
Australian Basketball Hall of Fame (2006)
Sport Australia Hall of Fame (2009)
2× First-team All-WAC (1990, 1991)

BEST SEASON
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/longllu01/gamelog/1996/

"Did I forget anything? Am I wrong? Or is this spot on?"

Yes, Yes, and No.

"What really does it for his NBA career is his effectiveness in a changing game and his ability to remain relevant despite injuries and a lack of a three-point shot."

You can't use your own subjective assessment of one player as the basis to claim he is the GOAT.

We can only look at achievements, because that is the only thing that allows comparisons across time.
Otherwise, its a pointless exercise, you're stuck with the problem that we invariably assess the modern game as being better, so how possibly to compare those of a previous generation?

On that basis, overall it is Jackson, and for the men it is Longley.

Yes, if you took any champion or team from 20 years ago, put them in the modern game, and they played like 20 years ago, they would lose. But the assumption we must make is that those who rose to the top 20 years would still rise to the top today (if "cloned" for example.)

LJ is not a mens college player. But GOAT woman.