Hoops

Ben having a pretty good time in Melbourne it seems

Fair point.

"Most of this conversation hasn't been about humour RJD"

Thanks for pointing that out, Greggo. Perhaps you can be thread captain here to keep us on the topic that you like. Most of this thread hasn't really been about Simmons too. Humour was mentioned as casual racism. Did you also forget the Simmons incident about a joke?

Any talk of racism needs to consider Melbourne and Sydney separately from the rest of the country, or Victoria and NSW separate from the other states. The recent elections showed the big divide between the two.

People in Melbourne and Sydney would probably cope better with knowing that mainland Chinese-born Australians have most likely overtaken NZ-born to now be the 2nd-biggest immigrant group behind those from the UK, with Indian-born catching up fast.

"People don't see their negative stereotyping of entire ethnic groups as being racism. They think people should be able to "just take a joke" or "stop being so sensitive"."

Humour is a tricky topic. Does the same objection apply to derogatory jokes about men/women? How about redheads/blondes? Fat people? Bald men? Jews/Christians/Musims? How about Irish/Scots/etc? Etc. How about irreverent jokes that use racism to make fun of racists?

If the core principle is to not like jokes that put down others, fair enough, oppose these kinds of jokes, but we are heading into dangerous territory when we limit free speech and police jokes.

I tend to support Ricky Gervais when he said, "The only time I'm offended by a comedian is when they apologise."

Fair examples Cram

I just re read that and I want to make clear, I don't think the majority of Australians are actually racist. Far from it. I think, however, there is a disconnect between how we see ourselves and the things we say and do. Same with the way we treat the opposite sex, people of a different religion, country, sexuality. Nobody thinks they are a bigot. But there are plenty out there, so self reporting doesn't work in this situation.

"I think the vast majority of Australians detest racism"

They'll say they do, but all too many fall into the "I'm not racist but..." crowd.

People don't see their negative stereotyping of entire ethnic groups as being racism. They think people should be able to "just take a joke" or "stop being so sensitive". They might even step in and help someone who is the victim of overt racism, but still make a "harmless joke". This is kind of the whole point. "I detest racism, but I don't see THAT as racism"

"there's a need to keep having these conversations."

Absolutely agree that it's valuable to have these conversations. This involves open and reasonable discussions. While racism definitely exists in Australia, and it's still too common, I think the vast majority of Australians detest racism. The media loves racism stories. It's dubious racism and claims of inherited racism that seems to generate the most polarised debate. The stories about racism on public transport rarely have people defending them.

As for identity politics, I'd suggest an amendment to your statement about identity politics and power: the expansion of identity politics on the left helps the people in positions of wealth (and therefore power) who are typically on the right. Identity politics moves the focus moves away from class differences and class-based politics. This makes it easier for right-wing politicians to maintain policies that protect their wealth. Trump is a classic example of someone who successfully appeals to a working class base in superficial ways, uses the anti-PC movement to gain support, all the while supporting policies that actually increase wealth inequality (assisting the rich). Identity politics is both the perfect distraction and a provides fuel to maintain support. It's great for tribalism. Moderates are increasingly talking about identity politics for a reason: it is toxic!

Also overhear a lot of "jokes", see people closely clutching bags when certain ethnic groups approach. Even people I actually know say things that perpetuate stereotypes of ethnic groups without even thinking about it.

Someone on a tram telling another to speak English.

Someone constantly looking at the Aboriginal man next to him to much he moved.

Cram, what are some examples of overt racism that you've seen recently? And passive racism?

"[For Cram only]"

I appreciate what you're saying, but I cannot ignore what I see and hear. Not on twitter but in person. I see overt racism regularly and passive racism almost daily. I see and hear sexism and misogyny regularly.

I see a government made up of old white men who make policies that directly benefit other old white men. To suggest otherwise would be disingenuous.

Terms like "identity politics" are thrown around just as freely by people protecting power as you accuse others of using terms like "white privilege".

While people pretend that these issues don't exist or people are being just too sensitive and should just get over it, there's a need to keep having these conversations.

"Sounds great. You have been listening to them, right? What do they suggest?"

What good would telling me be?

"Thanks for putting that disturbing image into my head Cram!"

Ha, you're welcome.

"I don't agree that 80% of Australians "appear" European though. Not in my suburb, my workplace, my city, my life. "

Again, get out of your bubble. There are studies which show people largely tend to overestimate the number of people who aren't like them in their region/country. For example, ask a lot of Australians what % of the population is muslim and you'll often hear answers quoting upwards of 10% when its less than 3%. Melbourne is a very multicultural city. The rest of Australia (aside from Sydney) less so.

"It starts with self determination. Stop creating policies for them, and invite polices from them."

Sounds great. You have been listening to them, right? What do they suggest?

[I don't agree that 80% of Australians "appear" European though. Not in my suburb, my workplace, my city, my life.]

I also don't agree that only whites are racist.

People from ethnic minority groups can be brutal in their racism towards other minorities.

This is improving, and will continue to improve. It's just the self loathing of some that I find silly.

[For Cram only]
Cram, as a personal aside, I think we are actually quite like-minded in many fundamental ways politically, as our discussions going back many years have indicated. I respect you as a genuinely well-intentioned good guy. However, your language in this thread ("old white men", "says the white guy", "makes you uncomfortable", etc) makes me think you've been influenced far too much by the Twitter SJWs. They are a very loud minority, creating influential echo chambers on Twitter. There are also equally loud minorities on the far-right creating influential echo chambers at the other end of the spectrum. What do they both have in common? Intolerance. THis is especially hypocritical on the far-left. I plead with you to think about focusing on your core principles and how following the path of SJWs will inevitably conflict with those core principles. Be especially wary of using the empty rhetoric of identity politics. This obsession with racial and gender labels doesn't translate into meaningful policies. It helps blame and divide, for what actual purpose?

Thanks for putting that disturbing image into my head Cram!

I don't agree that 80% of Australians "appear" European though. Not in my suburb, my workplace, my city, my life.

The Australian government actually spends $2.08 on every Indigenous person for every $1 spent on a non Indigenous person. According to a 2014 productivity commission report.

So, it's not for lack of trying to "close the gap". Clearly things aren't working.

"So, 80% of Australians "look white", and the only type of racism that exists is white people being racist to non white people? "

I'm one of these people. Much like your kid (ha, good luck getting that image out of your head). I have grandparents on one side from non Euro background, but my parents were both born and raised Australian. I appear to be completely European (to most) and therefore I fall into that 80%.

"The rise in the far-right has come from this kind of language, "white men""

Yeah you're right. Best keep the status quo that protects the feelings of these men at the expense of all others right?

"When you say "try listening", I assume you have been listening to solutions to this. I'm curious to hear these actual policies you might have heard about that address *present day* issues."

It starts with self determination. Stop creating policies for them, and invite polices from them.

So, 80% of Australians "look white", and the only type of racism that exists is white people being racist to non white people?

"If your default response is to dismiss historical atrocities, you continue to be part of the problem. "

That's another tired old argument. Nobody was dismissing the historical atrocities. We can't change the past, but we can change the future. Real change is about making policies that work. What policies are failing? What policies do you suggest will help here?

Trying to get all of one race in a country joining in a self-flagellation exercise doesn't do anything. It just heightens racial divides, reinforces useless stereotypes, and doesn't do anything to actually help.

When will people realise that relying on identity politics is counter-productive? You are only creating an environment for MORE white nationalists. You are going to get even more extremism as bounce-back. The rise in the far-right has come from this kind of language, "white men". Yes, you can suggest that the people who have the greatest wealth are disproportionately "old white men", but how exactly is that productive to point out? There are far, far more poor old white men. The identity politics within that argument fails to achieve anything. We need a system that creates opportunities, regardless of gender or race. What's the term, upward mobility? I'd say, on a world scale, Australia does a very good job of this. Some measures put Australia only behind 4 Scandinavian countries.

Cram, it's true that the statistics relating to Aboriginal health outcomes are terrible. The Australia government has been active, but not particularly successful, in creating policies to address these problems. There are also special policies, only offered to Aboriginal Australians, for extra help via affirmative action, welfare and other programs. As far as opportunities for upward mobility, these should theoretically help. We can take responsibility as a nation for fixing the countries *present day* problems, including problems related to the Aboriginal community. When you say "try listening", I assume you have been listening to solutions to this. I'm curious to hear these actual policies you might have heard about that address *present day* issues.

This preoccupation with racial responsibility and identity politics is not particularly helpful. It actually ends up creating more problems because identity politics is destroying the credibility of the left, resulting in disillusioned left moderates (the base of the left), and feeding the far-right movement. The rise of identity politics has coincided with a rise in right-wing nationalist governments in the West. Just a coincidence?

"Did Stratton have a bunch of political journalists telling him he needs to leave the country?"

I don't know anything about Stratton, but Simmons has the disadvantage of appearing more American and therefore somehow less Australian to some. He's shown going around wearing a large gold necklace around his neck with an entourage, etc, but crucially, with a significant American accent. For whatever reason, Australians either don't like or make fun of Australians that adopt American accents. Even on the national team many years ago Simmons was nicknamed "the American". Hint: it's not just because he has an American father.

That said, the calls for Simmons to go back to America are just idiotic.

"Not many people in Australia experience racism on a daily basis."

Oh ok thanks.

"17% of Australians have experienced racism in the last 12 months"

So basically the majority of Australians who don't look white then yeah?

The Greeks and Italians were slagged off like you wouldn’t believe in the fifties and sixties, I would hope we’ve moved on from there. Some Australian terms just to remind a few. Wog, dago, slant eyes, geeks, black bastards, chinks etc.

Not many people in Australia experience racism on a daily basis.

17% of Australians have experienced racism in the last 12 months. (According to the study by Western Sydney University)

And that includes people who experienced one instance of racism in the past 12 months.

Yes, 17% is too much, but it's not like huge numbers are facing racism every day. That's simply wrong.

Also, racism goes both ways. My family experienced racism at my own wedding reception, from one of my in laws friends. Such is life. Unfortunately, racism is normal human behaviour.

We must keep educating and improving. It's just silly that so many people want to cast Australia as a racist place when it's clearly one of the most diverse places on earth. With that diversity, comes acceptance of minorities.

When your view, as a white guy, is that Australia doesn't have much of a problem with racism, is directly contradicted by people who experience it on a daily basis, yes, your opinion is going to be discounted.

I'm happy your in laws have not experienced it, but as I've said previously, you may need to get outside of your own bubble to truly understand it

[Says the white guy]

Therein lies the problem.

We resort to discounting someone's view- which is based on data and interpretations of data- because of the colour of their skin.

My in laws were born overseas and they're definitely not white. If they think Australia's doing OK too, is that an acceptable opinion?

Yes, of course it is! Because the validity of someone's view depends on the colour of your skin.

Ah, this is so dumb, it'd be funny if it wasn't borderline tragic.

"But overall, we're doing OK."

Says the white guy

No, its only surprising in that those (mostly European) countries haven't got higher numbers in the culturally diversity indicators yet. The argument that Australia being ranked higher on a list of cultural diversity against countries that have had up to thousands of years of homogeneity means that Australia doesn't have a white ethnic majority is still absurd.

[That is actually surprising, I'll give you that. It should be noted, however, that the majority of the other countries in the OECD are traditionally emigrant countries, as opposed to immigrant countries. If the majority of your travel has been to these countries I can see why you remain in your bubble.]

It's only surprising if you have this in built assumption that Australia is a racist backwater full of xenophobes.

Australia has had a constant stream of arrivals from all over the world, ever since WW2. People born in the 1950’s are now grandparents. Ever since probably the 1970’s, it’s been very common to marry someone from another culture.

This has resulted in the mixed, multicultural society we now have. Which again, the data proves unequivocally is one of the most diverse places on earth.

[LV.... the greek and italian's don't get the same level of racism and bigotry thrown at them as POC do. What's the point you're trying to make?]

The University of Western Sydney has done work in this area.

This kind of data is always open to interpretation, and certain parts of the media have used their work to suggest Australia is an overtly racist place. But in my view, their data actually illustrates how tolerant Australia actually is.

Not that we can't improve, of course. But overall, we're doing OK.

And- the long term trend is up. Don't forget that either.

^there are two

There's clearly a way of protesting that white people are happy with and another way that clearly puts them in the "flog" territory. You're saying there's only one acceptable way, and that's the way that makes you feel comfortable.

CRAM they are too different ways of getting the same solution, one is education based which Patty does and one is creating a racist interaction that just can't be true. i am not uncomfortable or comfortable about the Simmons issue, i think he went with it, realised how it couldn't be because he was accusing a person of colour and then simply won't say he got it wrong.
I grew up watching Nicky Winmar at Victoria Park against Collingwood, as a youngster that made me uncomfortable.
I just think it was done incorrectly by Ben, doesn't mean that he shouldn't say there is a problem, but why not just say "I am funding Goodes doco, these are the reasons i am doing it and there is a problem" he quotes the Goodes doco in relation to uncomfortable conversations in that deleted post which brings me to the conclusion it was on his mind but spare a thought for the guy he falsely accused.
Patty is fully educated and genuine, doesn't seek the limelight but we all know about the work he does. Simmons grew up in and around the East and knows full well that the majority of his micro community was mixed culture and he was accepted, i think he tried to get the conversation happening and has done but for the wrong reasons which is where the flog box comes in. would be great if he would explain what actually occurred that night, novel approach i know but he just hit delete instead

That is actually surprising, I'll give you that. It should be noted, however, that the majority of the other countries in the OECD are traditionally emigrant countries, as opposed to immigrant countries. If the majority of your travel has been to these countries I can see why you remain in your bubble.

[If you think Australia is an ethnically diverse place compared to other nations, you need to travel more.]

I have travelled plenty and yes Australia is a very ethnically diverse place.

That’s one realisation that’s hit me on virtually every overseas holiday I’ve been on!

The data shows this- Australia is the 3rd most multicultural country in the OECD!

Its everything to do with it ANON.

There's clearly a way of protesting that white people are happy with and another way that clearly puts them in the "flog" territory. You're saying there's only one acceptable way, and that's the way that makes you feel comfortable.

"i hope Patty takes Ben aside and teaches him how to spread the message"

Yep, this one gets trotted out all the time too. "he didn't protest properly!" is another example of white privilege, with the ridiculous narrative behind Colin Kaeperniks supposed disrespecting the flag being the perfect example

that Comment has NOTHING to do with not protesting properly, Patty educates and is not a flog, is humble and understands the audience he is talking to, Ben it appears created something out of nothing on social media knowing it would create a storm, storm created then realised "shit the person i accused is actually a Person of Colour" there is a difference between natural and contrived and Patty has the natural in spades, the other is looking to get a doco into the states, you ask people to listen but you are not listening.

Whenever there is no counter you go with white privilege, so answer this question can a person of colour be racist against another person of the same colour about their colour, if the answer is no then you agree with me

Oh good, now you're gonna change goal posts now too? "Ok its a majority, but not a BIG one"

If you think Australia is an ethnically diverse place compared to other nations, you need to travel more. The fact that your most reasoned argument is "look at my daughter!" shows you need to get outside your own bubble.

[Except with, ya know, stats which show that the majority of Australians are still from an anglo-celtic or European descent.]

I don't think you can prove that.

Looking at my daughter, you may think she's of European heritage. Looking at the "stats' you may think she's of European heritage- she was born in Australia, as were both of her parents.

Except, she's not.

I don't think Australia even keeps statistics of where your grandparents were born? It's not on birth certificates.

It's not asked in the census, is it?

Besides, even if you can prove that say, 60% of Australians are of "European descent", what does that prove exactly? 60% of hardly a swashbuckling majority.

Europe itself is very diverse, too! I imagine the Greek and Italian populations of Australia may take offense at you lumping them in with the English as some kind of monolithic group.

"hope Patty takes Ben aside and teaches him how to spread the message"

Seeing as the discussion here seems to be trending towards the treatment of indigenous Australians and the perceived differences between the action of Simmons and respected indigenous athletes, does anyone have any insight into Ben's involvement (if any) with the indigenous community apart from funding the Goodes doco?

Except with, ya know, stats which show that the majority of Australians are still from an anglo-celtic or European descent.

I'm not arguing that this is changing (for the better), but to argue that this isn't the case right now is absurd, even for you.

[There's a few million of our 23 odd million population who are not from European heritage. To argue that doesn't represent a majority is absurd to the extreme.]

Cram, my daughter proves why you’re looking at this incredibly simplistically.

She was born in Australia, as were both of her parents. She’s not part of the half who were born overseas or have a parent who was.

Her father’s family has been in Australia for many generations and originally hailed from Europe. Her mother’s parents were born and raised in two different overseas countries (Non – European) and both moved to Australia at around the age of 20. English is their second language.

Is my daughter of “European” heritage? No. She’s got a mixed heritage. Half Anglo/European, half non.

My daughter is probably just as typical of the average Aussie as I am. Who’s part of the majority- me or her? What IS the majority, exactly? Is it defined as "the biggest individual group" or is it "over 50%"?

People can’t easily be “categorised” these days. Euro/Non Euro/Minority/Majority. We’re a multicultural society made up of diverse people. We need to make room for nuance in these discussions.

Did Stratton have a bunch of political journalists telling him he needs to leave the country?

I think if Ben had said "I made a mistake, how could that guy be racist against me when he is in fact a POC" it would have died and so would the commentary, like Bad Boy Nick, he dug in and was stubborn, then stormed out when Campbell Brown joked about Crown not the actual incident (Brown was laughing at himself being denied entry-He is a white male), any aussie that makes a mountain out of a mole hill when wrong inevitably cops it, particularly in the media. Aussies really like Patty Mills, Eddie Betts, Ash Barty, Jason Day, they just do their thing and we love them for it and Ben was definitely in that space with the media before this, they had accepted but not liked the fact he changed his mind about the exhibition games. Jones and Price are dickheads too, people know that and they in fact joke about the fact most aussies think that. You can actually get your point across in Australia by being humble, Patty educates he doesn't scream, there is a difference, i hope Patty takes Ben aside and teaches him how to spread the message

"Not true, Ireland isn't even in the top 10.

China and India are 3rd and 4th. Vietnam, Phillipines and Malaysia also in the top 10. "

Apologies, I treated the UK & Ireland as a block.

It doesn't change anything. There's a few million of our 23 odd million population who are not from European heritage. To argue that doesn't represent a majority is absurd to the extreme.

2016 figures- Australians born overseas

A million Australians born in India or China…..

UK 17.7%
NZ 8.4%
China 8.3%
India 7.4%
Phillipines 3.8%
Vietnam 3.6%

Sri Lanka now in the top 10.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1819/BornOverseas

["Half of all Australians were either born overseas, or have at least one parent born overseas."

And the largest (by far) contributors to that? The UK, Ireland and New Zealand]

Not true, Ireland isn't even in the top 10.

China and India are 3rd and 4th. Vietnam, Phillipines and Malaysia also in the top 10.

And that's from 2011. 8 years later, things would be getting even more diverse.

Simmons and Cornes? Simmons put up an instagram meme making fun of Cornes. Come on mate, you've gotta grow a thicker skin...

The Crown post was an immature kid who has a little too much self importance and money and the person he accused of being racist was in fact a person of colour; it (the post)actually makes no sense when you isolate that incident, it did look like he was trying to find a situation to garner attention with. I think aussies have put him in the Nick Kyrgios flog box as a bloke. The same people love Eddie Betts and Patty Mills because they are humble, successful genuine good blokes not flogs. Hawthorn captain Stratton a white male got media attention for being a flog and pinching, he apologised for being a dick and no more was said. Aussies call out d-heads, it may be that simple

"We live in one of the most diverse places on earth. We simple don’t have an ethnic “majority” in the same sense that other countries do. "

Except that we do. This country is still far more white than all other backgrounds combined.

"Half of all Australians were either born overseas, or have at least one parent born overseas."

And the largest (by far) contributors to that? The UK, Ireland and New Zealand.

"I dare say in Melbourne and Sydney, it would be much more than half"

Yeah probably, and in the some parts of the country, close to zero.

And back on Simmons.

Kane Cornes is the latest little drama….. Very sad to see Simmons running around picking fights from his smartphone. If you read the comments on facebook, you’ll see how many fans he’s lost. Terrible- both for his personal brand and for basketball. Really hoping he develops some maturity, and fast.

[This isn't accidental. Its a choice, and happens everywhere, including when an Aboriginal person dares to stand up to racism. Rather than listen, we tell them what they should do.

Try listening.]

To who, exactly?

I find that when Indigenous leaders with an alternate view put their head above the paraphet, they get slammed. Think Warren Mundine or Jacinta Nampijinpa Price.

These are complex issues.

[“We white people”]

Half of all Australians were either born overseas, or have at least one parent born overseas. I dare say in Melbourne and Sydney, it would be much more than half.

Of the remaining half of Australians whose parents were born here (like me), how many of us married someone whose parents were born overseas (I did). My daughters grandparents share three countries of birth. She’s pretty typical for someone born nowadays.

So, I find the whole idea of “we white people” to be mostly irrelevant.

We live in one of the most diverse places on earth. We simple don’t have an ethnic “majority” in the same sense that other countries do.

Hitler tried wiping out the Jews, 75 years ago and the German government still pays billions to Israel’s budget every year. Is there a time limit on how far you go back, lots of Australians don’t no the truth of our history, the aboriginals were wiped out in Tasmania and massacred in mainland Australia. Players like Winmar and Goodes are just showing how poor as a nation we have been trying to make the wrongs right. For f..ks sake NZ have had a treaty with there indigenous people since early the previous century, 1917 if memory serves me.