Hoops

$4m gap between Kings and Sixers: Wright

Great to hear Phoenix coach Simon Mitchell call out Joey for his excuses in his presser. Stop making excuses about rosters and cap and refs when you lose and cop it on the fucking chin. Was music to my ears

Greg Hire talks about salary caps, luxury taxes etc. Interesting perspective being on the players association. It's more towards the end of the audio.

All teams last season spent 90% of the cap which they are obligated to do. 5 of the teams spent more.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/perth-wildcats/the-dribble-podcast-greg-hire-on-retirement-life-and-interest-from-perth-wildcats-rivals-ng-b881381789z

I would be interested to know how much hand outs Hawks and Pans are getting? When you get a stream of welfare money you may not be as prudent with money as if it were your own.

#313
When you own the league you can change the rules.

Anyone with an ear close to the ground no that the league have been helping the less well off clubs.

You don’t hear the clubs complaining.

It’s two coaches, one that never complained when his Brisbane side spent quadruple what the other sides spent and his side now still has a reasonable budget and he selects his players. When it all goes tits up, it’s I don’t have enough money.

The other after a loss to the kings and, they have four imports. Didi is not classified as an import and Taylor only just arrived so there first six games they played with two plus Didi and he was injured for two. This is the same coach that has and always have had the best or close to the best funded list in the competition. They were down and out a few seasons back but low and behold Mr Cotton turns up to win them a premiership halfway through the season, off course he wasn’t paid. Lmao.

Both these coaches are quality coaches but also top shelf whinges.

jungle drums might start beating if they don't get at least one win this weekend

#builtnotbought

Norton moved west because of his love for Little Creatures beer, as well as the opportunity to come off the bench instead of start.

Sydney roster wouldn’t be with in a million of Melbourne.

We all no that the only side that play for nothing is Perth for they love Gleeson. It’s the way he whinges to the refs that keeps all Perth players happy, they don’t need money.

By the way, Melbourne wanted Kay and even they baulked at what Perth paid.

Gleeson scoffed at the next star program, now claims teams cheat with it. Such a flog.

[Rival NBL coaches have accused the Sydney Kings of having a roster worth four million dollars more than any other team — despite being able to spend the same amount as the ladder leaders.

Perth coach Trevor Gleeson started the critictism after his side’s 104-85 loss to the Kings last Sunday by saying that the Harbour City franchise had four imports.

Gleeson was including Sydney’s Brazilian shooting guard Didi Louzada as one of the team’s imports even though he is a Next Stars signing.

Next Stars players like LaMelo Ball and RJ Hampton aren’t included in the salary cap as the NBL pays their wage.

Adelaide coach Joey Wright then chimed in on Tuesday when he was asked how teams close the gap to Sydney.

Wright cheekily replied: “Four million dollars.”

The 8-1 Kings are loaded with talent, including former NBA champion Andrew Bogut and ex-title-winning Melbourne United guard Casper Ware.

There is no doubting Sydney’s depth of talent but they are operating under the league rules.

Unlike the NRL’s salary cap limit, the NBL changed its salary cap setup from a “hard cap” of $1 million to a “soft cap” of $1.1 million, meaning teams may exceed the soft cap provided that they pay a salary equalisation subsidy.

These funds can be filtered down to franchises that don’t exceed the limit.

However this is a discretionary fund the NBL holds for required spending, which is different to the NBA where it’s a distributed fund across clubs.

Sydney chairman and owner Paul Smith responded to the jibes on Twitter, accusing rival teams of being bitter.

“Really?” Smith said.

“Geez, I didn’t see that coming? One coach says we have four imports. Another one says he needs four million. What’s with the fours? Tell you what - we have a great assistant coach from Perth (Adam Forde) and a player that couldn’t get a start in Adelaide (Deshon Taylor). We’re cool.”

In fairness, Sydney have bigger things to worry about ahead of Sunday’s blockbuster clash against LaMelo Ball and the Illawarra Hawks.

The Kings are preparing for a record crowd when they meet the Hawks at Qudos Bank Arena.

The highest ever regular season attendance for a single NBL game in Sydney is 12,050, while the biggest ever crowd for a standalone NBL game in Sydney is 14,569 (both set last season against Melbourne United).

The biggest crowd for a single NBL game is 15,336 between the Melbourne Tigers and South East Melbourne Magic at Rod Laver Arena in 1996.

These records could be broken while a huge international audience is also expected to tune in to watch Ball who some experts have already predicted could be the No.1 pick in next year’s NBA Draft.]

Not much there

Salary cap figure is years out of date too

Can anyone copy and paste this article please? Pay wall


https://amp.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/basketball/rival-nbl-coaches-slam-sydney-kings-stacked-nbl-roster/news-story/4ccd1a3532680287e926431d23ae0cbf?__twitter_impression=true

this is a nothing story Joey wright brought up this same topic back in November 2016 after 4 straight losses sent the 36ers to the bottom of the ladder with a 3W-6L record. 15 matches later the 36ers had a 17-7 record and secured the minor premiership with a team most had finishing bottom 2 of the start of the season.


https://www.espn.com.au/nba/story/_/id/18090541/financial-gap-all-too-obvious-nbl-haves-nots

And, the more different owners there are, the less likely they'll accept frivolous spending and losses.

You still need to spend money in order to claim a deduction.

Someone is putting up the physical cash that ends up in the bank accounts of your Prather's and Trimbles.

[Are you saying that their expenditure wouldn't be as high as estimated, or that they are spending a lot so must have a reason for doing so?]

I'm saying there's no logical reason why they would be spending $5mil on salaries.

I think people lose sight of the dollars we're talking about

Only a small handful of AFL players make over $500k a year (About 8 per club, on average). The revenue of the AFL as an organisation is $700 million a year. They made a $25mil profit last year.

The clubs have other revenue streams- eg several Victorian clubs have revenue of around $20mil a year just from pokies.

Yet even in the AFL, only the top 20% of the players make 500k.

Which of those shareholders would be happy paying Prather, Long, or Trimble any more than that?

Here's a list of United shareholders

http://www.melbourneutd.com.au/pages/melbourne-united-board

We know CrocMedia is owned by an ASX co and owns 25%

https://www.afr.com/companies/media-and-marketing/crocmedia-buys-share-of-nbls-melbourne-united-from-larry-kestelman-20180715-h12p6m

I don't know how much the other owners have

But the point is, these guys arent throwing away cash for the fun of it- especially the publicly owned ASX owner

If United plays 19 home games – 14 regular season, 5 playoffs- averaging crowds of 8,500 per game, average ticket cost of $50- that’s $8 million in revenue. (Yes- of course they have merch and sponsorship revenue too).

Consider their costs:

- Player salaries
- Staff salaries- executives, coaching, office staff, etc etc. This would be substantial because of the large headcount. Say 30 staff * 75k is $2.25mil. Add payroll tax on top.
- Marketing
- Office rent. They may be using LK office space but would be paying market rates given there are other owners involved.
- Travel costs- How much does it cost to send 20 people to the USA for a week?
- Venue hire
- Ticketmaster percentage on every ticket sold
- All your standard business expenses- electricity, insurances, staff recruitment, office fit outs, IT and software, accountants, lawyers.

Etc etc.

If they’re paying their players $5mil (like Bogut suggested) then they’re losing millions of dollars. Guaranteed.

Where’s the money coming from in the NBL? If guys like Prather, Trimble and Long are on $700k, and if Goulding and McCarron are on $500k, then who’s pouring in these millions to pay these guys salaries? Who decided they wanted to lose money just for the fun of it? And why are they doing it? What’s their incentive?

LK has loads of cash to throw around, sure. But don’t forget he still owns the league too. Conflict of interest but also means his main incentive is a strong league, not for his club to win at all costs and lose money for the other owners.

Don’t forget, an ASX Listed company owns 25% of United. (Crocmedia is owned by an ASX company). There’s other small owners too. Do we really think LK has such magical powers of persuasion that he’s convincing everybody to throw money away?

If United plays 19 home games – 14 regular season, 5 playoffs- averaging crowds of 8,500 per game, average ticket cost of $50- that’s $8 million in revenue. (Yes- of course they have merch and sponsorship revenue too).

Consider their costs:

- Player salaries
- Staff salaries- executives, coaching, office staff, etc etc. This would be substantial because of the large headcount. Say 30 staff * 75k is $2.25mil. Add payroll tax on top.
- Marketing
- Office rent. They may be using LK office space but would be paying market rates given there are other owners involved.
- Travel costs- How much does it cost to send 20 people to the USA for a week?
- Venue hire
- Ticketmaster percentage on every ticket sold
- All your standard business expenses- electricity, insurances, staff recruitment, office fit outs, IT and software, accountants, lawyers.

Etc etc.

If they’re paying their players $5mil (like Bogut suggested) then they’re losing millions of dollars. Guaranteed.

Where’s the money coming from in the NBL? If guys like Prather, Trimble and Long are on $700k, and if Goulding and McCarron are on $500k, then who’s pouring in these millions to pay these guys salaries? Who decided they wanted to lose money just for the fun of it? And why are they doing it? What’s their incentive?

LK has loads of cash to throw around, sure. But don’t forget he still owns the league too. Conflict of interest but also means his main incentive is a strong league, not for his club to win at all costs and lose money for the other owners.

Don’t forget, an ASX Listed company owns 25% of United. (Crocmedia is owned by an ASX company). There’s other small owners too. Do we really think LK has such magical powers of persuasion that he’s convincing everybody to throw money away?

The Melbourne list is so wrong and again I’m believing what partners tell me, so it is hear say but they would be around the mark.

Stop guessing you have no idea. Believe me Melbourne top six are on extremely good money.

(They would all be spending 5ook or less that is, given they're not allowed to spend more than $514,800. I think it remains a possibility they're paying a fair bit less. I remember CJ Massingale saying he was on 40k. That was only about what, 5 or 6 years ago? )

Actually Majok is probably on more and others in the bottom 5 on less. Majok has played 4 seasons in the NBL

Still I think all of these top teams would be paying approx 500k to the bottom guys.

The differences are in the top end, and I agree Perth has less top end, expensive talent than UTD or Sydney. Perth's got a great coach and a great system. It remains to be seen whether that will make up for the budget difference.

Perth top end estimates

Cotton 600
White 450
Kay 300
Hunt 250
Martin 250
Norton 200
Wagstaff 150
Steindl 100
Majok 90
Vague 90
NP 70

$2.55 mil total.

Bottom 5 on $500k, under $514,800.

White performed well in the GF and might’ve got a raise. Martin and Wagstaff are settled long term in Perth, so they might be playing for less than they’d otherwise be worth.

But to repeat one point, when I say "I might be way off the mark", I mean that I may be over estimating these guys salaries.

I very much doubt any of these United or Kings players would be on substantially MORE than what I've listed. It just wouldn't make sense, given what we know about salaries in other Australian sports, and international basketball, and given where the NBL is at in the sporting landscape.

Because one question you have to ask yourself is this: If this is a massive arms race, and the Kings are spending $4mil like Wright says, and United are spending $5 or $6mil like Bogut said (with tongue firmly in cheek I'm sure), you have to ask why? For what benefit? What's the point? Who's spending the money and why?

Follow the money...always follow the money.

Anon #108

I'm completely making these up, just for fun. Might be way off the mark.

Who knows. Not many of us do, that's for sure.

Melbourne United top end estimates

Long 500
Trimble 500
Prather 500
CG 400
McCarron 300
Barlow 200
Pledger 150
Ili 130
Acuil 100
Smith Milner 70
McDaniel 60

Total $2.91mil

Bottom 5 $510k, under $514,800

I doubt anyone on United is earning over $500k. Trimble and Long are young guys from losing teams, they wouldn’t be on the kind of money afforded to proven championships winners like Ware (supposedly 700) and Cotton (reported as 600). Prather is a proven winner but just had 12 months off- and that carries a bunch of risks, such as the clean up that resulted in him missing 6 or 7 games. And, will he be the same Prather as before? Most players recover well, but then you also have guys like Bairstow who return without quite the same agility.

What a load of shit.

Walker 100g lmao
Lisch never earned 400k when even JVG was running it.

I could go on, on all that list but not worth the effort. Melbourne are the real big spenders and you can’t admit it as they might not win it all.

Caspers more believable since Cotton was reportedly on 600 and may have taken a discount for a 3 year deal. Plus as you say, Sydney outbid United for his services.

So I could almost believe 700 for Casper. Let's say 700 then

Casper 700
Bogut 500
Lisch 400
Newley 300
Didi 300 (Inc 100 by NBL)
Tate 250
Kickert 200
Moller 150
Bruce 100
Walker 100
Kuany 80
Hunter 70

Total 3.15mil, Inc 100k paid by NBL.

Bottom 5 on 500k, less than 40% of salary floor or $514,800. (Cap 1.43mil, floor 1.287 mil, 40% of floor being 514,800)

If the salaries are 4mil then where is the extra 850k going? Who's getting extra beyond the above numbers?

Fwiw I think these are top end estimates. I doubt any of these guys would be getting more than this. I reckon most would be on less- especially Newley, Lisch and Didi. Those 3 wouldn't be on 1mil combined.

Melbourne went close to breaking even last season. They're doing well from the corporate activities linked to the club.

I would have thought that only Perth turn a profit.

It's not so much bitching about Sydney spending lots as it is about what is going to keep the NBL a thriving, sustainable, competitive league.

Bogut salary was reported as 1 Mil over TWO seasons

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/basketball/it-s-not-about-money-why-bogut-has-gone-all-in-for-the-kings-20180424-p4zbfl.html

He has shares in the Kings too but we have no idea what the shares were worth.


https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-24/bogut-rules-out-nba-return-commits-to-kings-for-long-term/9690808


And, a company that has no profits legally can't pay a dividend. So, are the Kings profitable? Unlikely I reckon.

Is that why the basketball gods punished them by injuring Lisch?

Although Sydney is still getting it done one import down.

Its a bad smell to see them 8-1 with an NBA draftee in DIDI being not counted as a full blown import. Like a James Ennis for free.

Where did all this stuff about Bogut being on $1mil and Casper being on $700-$800k come from?

That's so outlandish it's hard to take seriously. Where are you people actually getting these numbers from?

The Kings salaries wouldn't even be close to $4mil.

Wright's not serious.

Brisbane Bullets paid for a title. Joey Wright was the coach

^^^^
What a load of shite.

Brisbane Bullets paid for a title. Joey Wright was the coach

This is so weak by Joey. I’ll be happy when he is gone. Real tacky stuff from a ‘pro’. Coaches should be on the business of not making excuses, he sees the writing on the wall, another failed season, so plays the political game. If he doesn’t like the fact the kings are most likely getting some sort of financial aid to get them going and the league going, move on. It’s a business, it’ll be around long after Joey has left.

I'd be surprised if Ball's salary counted to Sydney's cap

If the Kings' salary bill is $4 million, the luxury tax is going to be way less than that number would suggest. Only part of Bogut's salary counts as I expect he's their marquee local. None of Ball's salary counts. So that would reduce the amount subject to luxury tax by around $1 million, using the numbers posted above.

The amount paid to Taylor's club to buy out his contract probably doesn't count because it doesn't go to Taylor?

So I reckon there'd be not much luxury tax coming to poor clubs compared to that level of spending. Maybe $300,000 split across 2-3 clubs next year? So $100,000-$150,000 each?

In comparison, a $4 million spend by the Kings, with other clubs only spending to the cap (on average), would lift the salary floor by more than $200,000 next year - if NBL still has the rule about increasing cap/floor in line with average team salaries.

2009-10 was peak cheap era of NBL, with BA taking over. That import list is horrible.

He only won one title at Brisbane.

"I'm genuinely not convinced that the quality of imports has increased hugely over the past 10 years; "

The imports from 2009-10:
Cortez Groves
Rolan Roberts
Awvee Storey
Corey Williams
Tywain McKee
Adam Ballinger
Julius Hodge
John Gilchrist
Ayinde Ubaka
Erron Maxey
Rich Melzer
Rick Rickert
Kevin Lisch
Shawn Redhage
Galen Young
Julien Mills
Dave Gruber

I've probably missed someone. I don't remember most of these guys well so can't comment on how they compare to today's batch.

This was a quote from Bloomberg:

"Hampton will join the Breakers as part of the local National Basketball League’s Next Stars Program, which means he’ll be paid by the league and not the team. The standard contract for a player in the program is $100,000, but Walsh said Hampton would “far surpass that.” He declined to be specific.

The 6-foot-5 point guard signed a two-year contract with the New Zealand Breakers, said team part-owner and managing director Matt Walsh. Because he signed a two-year deal, the Breakers will eligible to receive an $800,000 buyout from any NBA team that selects Hampton in the first round of the draft, Walsh said."

Didn't hear Wright complaining when when Brisbane spent ten fold on every one else.

Very little mention of Tate. He's been awesome for them!! A modern day Barkley. He will win them the chip!

That's a good system for lifting the bottom clubs while the top clubs spend, therefore improving quality of talent/player payments across the league, but what it doesn't do is fix the issue of the inherent advantage of those spending more than others.

The bigger relative spenders will still exist, the best players will still get snapped up by the bigger spenders, the lower spenders will inevitably inherit the losing role year after year and try to draw crowds/sponsors in on the role of being beaten.

Whether LK or the NBL actually want to remediate that is the first question, the second question is how, without affecting the league's ability to draw top local and international talent.

That money goes into a fund which other clubs must apply for and use on certain terms, I believe.

Isn't there a tax for player payments over the soft cap which would help prop up clubs like cairns and illawarra? Where is that money going is it being made public?