Hoops

Are we sure Dean Vickerman is a good NBL head coach?

This world. It hasn't been all plain sailing for him in China.

Mitchell and Kelly are certainly missed.

Can coach,but I’m sure Henare is terribly missed,maybe needs something else assistant wise,Schueller can’t be that clever if he’s taking Smith-Milner to Geelong.The league keeps improving so maybe some of those wiley old coaches could be used as assistants,lot to be said of experience.Vickerman looks almost bemused when they start getting 10 down against sides they probably should be in front off.

All the armchair critics here who have never coached a game in their life less they actually have to get off their fat asses all up in here like they know more than professionals!

That's a no from me.

We've seen what a poor coach can do with a stacked roster.
In fact we've seen what even a to-date, average, coach can to with a stacked roster.
So there is absolutely no way you can discount Vickerman's wins based on roster-strength.

In regards to last year's loss, people also have to accept that Gleeson is the best coach in the league. So being marginally "out-coached" is not necessarily that damming of Vicks. Probably the greatest thing Gleeson did last year, was getting his team to reconnect after their mid-season slump, and getting everyone to fire up for the finals.
The one criticism I would level at Vicks & MU, is that after getting pummelled in game 3, they lost their bottle and all-but rolled over in game 4.

What we know for a fact, is that in addition to stacking your roster, successful teams need to build chemistry, culture, and consistency. Melbourne had too much churn over the off-season, and inconvenient injuries during the season.
And yes, with Long and Trimble, looking at rebuilding the entire fabric of your team around two vastly different players.
Trimble was a great pick for a crap team looking for a hero. Moulding him into a leader for a would-be champion will take longer.
Long, as his size, is always going to be a more offensively valuable centre.

The season is not over.

Vickerman is a good coach.
A) he won 2 championships over 2 different teams.
B) He took an under-performing United and won it all the next year, then took them to Game 4 of the GF the year next.

What more do you want?

Every coach is exposed to losing at some point.

Gleeson wasn't able to get it done with DeAndre Daniels and Beal, nor with Cotton and JP Tokoto. Doesn't make him a bad coach.

I think this thread was either authored by Dean ' Ryan' Demopolous or Jo Lual Acuil's agent.

Who is this Raheem Moore and can we please sign him ASAP?

His name inspires Hoops greatness.

Can't be worse than Ramone Moore.

It hasn’t been plain sailing for gorg in China and result show that. Big money on offer though.

Good coaches can make bad teams ok, Bevo imo the best at that. Bad coaches make all teams look bad. In a nut shell you are still only as good as your players.

"Paul please don't use Goorjian in that hypothetical please. In what world could you envision him moving clubs and being at the helm of a rabble such as the current Bullets team."

This world. It hasn't been all plain sailing for him in China.

Long is so overrated, Gleeson wouldn’t play him much as he is poor at the defensive end. Gleeson comes across as a flog but is a very, very smart coach.
Crevili and vickerman seem to spend a lot of time at the summer league only to bring in imports that are in the nbl already and they pinch them from poorer clubs or an injured Prather. Don’t make sense to me. McCarron probably hasn’t improved either.

Vickerman has been the beneficiary of having good rosters at his disposal at both clubs, with money to sign elite talent, plus low maintenance veterans who put the team first and would be easy to coach.

An open question is exactly how much influence he has in recruitment but I suspect he directs the whole show and has the final say on any decisions. You'd hope so, anyway.

Paul please don't use Goorjian in that hypothetical please. In what world could you envision him moving clubs and being at the helm of a rabble such as the current Bullets team.

Thinking back to Lemanis at the Breakers you had those first two seasons or so where in one he let Carlos Powell walk all over him on national TV. Never before or again have I seen anything like it in the NBL - how he kept his job I don't know. Then once the Blackwells put in their culture, local NZ talent improved and was retained (and overpaid), the scouting/recruitment service (can't recall the name) they used which brought in the most consistent crop of imports compared to any other organisation, the construction of a club-owned Atlas Place training centre, finding substantial third party money for the signing of Kirk Penney etc. and Lemanis' record went up. Vickerman continued in it. These were all unique intangibles not even found at the Wildcats. I don't think it's unfair that such an environment can boost an average coach's record.

"I don't think Long was the best move. The choices weren't Boone or Long, it was Boone or any other import in the world. Despite the flash and highlights last year, "

Disagree, Long figured out how to stay out of foul trouble which the majority of import bigs fail to do in the NBL. I'd take that over waiting to see if an untried import can figure it out after a few months, if not, that pick-up is a bust.

Looking at Perth, Hunt never truly figured it out so they went high risk high reward with cutting him and bringing in Plumlee because they didn't have much to do. If United went with an untested C, they would've missed out on Long, and he probably would be at the Cats right now and we'd be title favourites by an absolute mile.

So therefore Gleeson has just been made to look good by the Perth org? And Goorjian was just made to look good by working for the big spending teams? I don't buy it, there is so much more to coaching than having names on a piece of paper.

Man who was in the right place at the right time.

Vickerman and Westover have plenty in common:

- Took over Tigers/United team who had underachieved the previous season

- Good imports returned, after already being with the team the previous season: Ware and Boone. DT and Tucker.

- Inherited veteran role players, no fuss characters who play team basketball and have winning pedigree, having won championships previously: Barlow and Andersen. Stiff and D-Mac. (And Hoare, without the championship experience).

- Big budget at their disposal: United re-signed Goulding after Vickerman’s first year, and signed McCarron. Tigers signed Anstey for Westover’s first season, and signed Barlow after Westover’s 2nd season. Both teams have the money to go after in-demand imports who have proven themselves in the NBL: Long and Trimble. Ebi Ere.

In short, a coaches dream in both cases.

United won the 2017/18 Championship with 4 imports.

@Rayan

Prather was not healthy in there championship year. He played about 1/4 season. Moller started when he went down till the back up import arrived, Carrick Felix who was was very team oriented, he and Moller shared the time. Prather came back in last round and Moller started again till grand final. Prather started in grand finals and played big minutes. They were minor premiers that year and had home court advantage. Adnam and Hooley didn’t play a lot that season playing typical bench minutes, as did Majok who was back up five and Barlow back up four, Anderson back up five four. Hooley came in as an injury replacement for Dillon who was injured before season started. United were playing average at the time Prather went down with the thought that Prather, Goulding and Ware were all ball dominant, they went on the winning run as soon as Prather got injured. United won the GF series but had Adelaide had home court advantage it might have been different. The eleven man rotation for most season was Ware, Goulding, Felix, Wesley, Boone, Moller, Majok, Anderson, Barlow, Hooley and Adnam. Goulding was MVP for GF series though Prather was great in game five.

Vickerman is a good coach but he has to put his type players around him, is he putting the side together or others. Gleeson gets guys to suit his system. In the United winning year the majority of the season Ware and Goulding were the main scoring threat outside with Wesley in side and Boone feeding off the scraps. The whole team played D, reasons that Adnam and Hooley didn’t see lots off time that season. There present team has not many natural defenders so it’s struggling, certainly not over for them because they have talent but that doesn’t win with out grind. Last season outside influences blew up towards season end and replacing Trist with a no better player and playing his big money players to long even though not performing crashed team first mentality and no defence on Cotton or White who was unstoppable and ended up MVP.

Yes he can coach but you need the right players and no matter what sport it starts at the defensive end.

and Westover was NOT a good coach, sorry to say. (From having heard him coaching from up close.)

[OK, so five seasons as a head coach in the NBL for four grand final appearances and two titles. Has any other coach in NBL history done this well in their first five seasons?]

Westover achieved the same in his first 4 seasons.

And 2 titles in his first 3 seasons.

Long was the right move, best C in the NBL and Boone was fading fast. Burning bridges with Ware was the problem, as much as I hate his shit eating grin, he can ball on both ends of the court, makes smart decisions and can turn it on to win games at the end. As good as Trimble is he's still pretty far off being a leader and demander of the ball. Ware is probably the difference in Kings being top 2 and United being top 2 to be honest.

OK, so five seasons as a head coach in the NBL for four grand final appearances and two titles. Has any other coach in NBL history done this well in their first five seasons? Brian Kerle maybe?

[Gleeson out coached him in last years GF series]

I haven’t gone back and re-watched any of that series - too depressing.

But, what adjustments did Gleeson make in Games 3 and 4 that caused Perth to dominate both games?

Was it coaching, or United players under performing- or Perth players stepping up?

United did struggle to score in that series. I think Perth exploited a weakness in United’s roster. After Wesley’s departure, United had a lack of low post players. The 2019 offense was all based on Vickerman’s typical sets. Pick and rolls, screens for Goulding, ball movements to open threes.

In 2018, there was a plan B –Wesley down low.

In 2020, we have plan B again- Long down low. This year’s team, at the moment, isn’t quite demonstrating the ability to make smart decisions within the offense. They’re scoring, but scoring through individual brilliance more often than smart team play. And of course they’re defensively deficient.

This does raise questions about Vickerman’s ability to put teams together though.

[Without hindsight, if at the start of the season you were offered the chance to sign both players are you saying you wouldn't have?]

I don’t watch every Cairns and NZ game. Vickerman is the guy who’s paid to make the right decisions.

Having now seen United this season, I would’ve signed Long but not Trimble. High scoring guards are common in the NBL, but it’s rarer having a big guy who can score like Long. Which in my mind makes Long more valuable.

Keeping Casper to shore up the perimeter D would’ve helped Long stay out of foul trouble too.

Of course, this is all dependent on range of factors- money, basketball fit, availability, cultural fit. We as fans can judge basketball fit and take good guesses at cultural fit, but have no idea about money (Hoops anons notwithstanding!).

[Those three guys are probably 3 of the worst coaches in recent memory so it's not that hard to be better than them]

Anstey wasn’t a terrible coach at all. 2013-14 was a good year for the Tigers, given the roster they had.

My guess is Anstey is an acquired taste and works with some people but not others. My guess is the 2014-15 team didn’t mesh with him personality wise, and D-Mac is a chilled character and was brought in with the task of managing that team with all it’s egos and diverse/difficult personalities.

[So why have you been adamant all season that Melbourne are second favourites behind Sydney? You're realising this only now?]

Until 2 weeks ago, there were some reasonable excuses. Prather would be one of the better defenders on the team, and has missed all year (7 games at under 100% fitness, playing 18 minutes a game). Pledger interior toughness was also missed. United were 10-7 after losing some close ones, and looked a good chance to get going with a healthy roster.

Kidd’s still only been in the country 2 weeks and is adjusting to the refs (hence why he played 5 minutes and 16 seconds on Saturday). There’s still 7 games till playoffs. Things can change quickly. I haven’t given up.

I don't think you can blame Vickerman for this he's doing his best with the cards he's been dealt. There is no way a defensive minded coach like him demanded Long & Trimble be on the roster we all saw how good offensively but weak defensively they were on their respective teams.

Throwing the cheque book at Long & Trimble is the kind of thing a clueless GM does along with the batshit crazy decision to give a past import (Prather) a 2 year contract despite doing his knee the previous season and missing all of that season to injury.

I’ve been saying this for at least 2 seasons now, and you put the right words to my thoughts, LV.

His recruiting sucks in terms of its balance and roles, unless he has another JVG type of person doing the recruiting ‘for him’ (Crivelli?)

I’d actually say that he does poorly in building a team culture - there were enough times over the last two seasons where it seemed that either his players weren’t following instructions or he’d just not got them on board in the first place. Too much hero ball, too much jacking up rushed 3-pointers, poor offensive rebounding, general confusion about roles after Wesley left, etc etc.

I’m glad to see that Acuil gets minutes but I think he’s likely to be the future of the team in a couple of years and could be blooded a bit faster.

"Although I do think Vickerman is a better coach than all previous United coaches (Anstey, D-Mac, Demopoulos)."

Those three guys are probably 3 of the worst coaches in recent memory so it's not that hard to be better than them

Gleeson out coached him in last years GF series

Good thread. I’ve been wondering the same thing. Thanks for posting.

At a few points I’d disagree with some of your comments: eg: Hooley vs Adnam wasn’t a simple decision at the time. Adnam a much better scorer, Hooley a much better defender. Arguably a taller, big bodied defender is a better fit alongside CG43. Hooley proved his worth in Game 1 of the 2018 Grand Final. Sometimes these decisions are based on fit moreso than talent.

You’re a bit harsh on the substitution patterns- Vickerman seems to use whichever bigs he thinks are appropriate at the time. Without checking stats, I would’ve thought Acuil has played more time than TSM this year? Acuil way more talented, but also loose with the ball and foul prone. I’d play Acuil ahead of TSM in most situations, but I don’t agree TSM is useless- he was quite handy on the weekend for example.

United won in 2018 which is what they should’ve done with that roster. In 2019, it was very disappointing the way they lost the minor premiership and then capitulated in the GF (Notwithstanding The awesome semi final series in between). This year was going reasonably but the last 4 games have threatened to turn this into a train wreck. I’ll withhold judgment til season’s end.

Coaches have a broad role that encompasses:

- X’s and O’s and scouting
- Game night X’s and O’s and in game adjustments, being adaptable and reading situations
- Culture and Psychology: Communicating well. Cultivating and sustaining a positive team culture. Motivating players and ensuring they’re in the right head space and playing well at the right time of year
- Recruitment
- Player development- keeping an eye on the future

Right now, I’m questioning Vickerman’s recruiting- Trimble and Long both very talented. But, both share similar weaknesses: Poor defense, not leaders, possibly lacking mental toughness especially in Long’s case, not proven clutch players on successful professional teams. Was it a good idea recruiting two guys with those same issues?

Coaches should be judged not purely on how successful their teams are, but on how well their teams go *relative to the level of talent at their disposal*. On that basis, I don’t rate Vickerman any higher than many of the current and past NBL coaches who have less championships, or none at all- eg: Bevo, Wright, Fearne. Although I do think Vickerman is a better coach than all previous United coaches (Anstey, D-Mac, Demopoulos).

There has been alot of injuries this season, mainly to key players:
Lance Hurdle
Mitch Creek
James Harvey
Corin Henry
Ian Crosswhite

(plus more that i can't think of)
When will these players be playing again do you think?